ORIGINAL: Universal mind

I call shens.

Hahaha. Too much GenMay

The car is on fire,
And there's no driver at the wheel.
And the sewers are all muddied with a thousand lonely suicides,
And a dark wind blows.

ORIGINAL: Xaem

ORIGINAL: mesavox

Xaem... you still haven't explained how the comment directly related to the topic of the thread that said "No wonder" isn't relating to the idea that because he is a christian his music directly resulted in being of less quality.

You even reitterated it in your last post that his finding Jesus would cause his work to suffer. That is an idiodic statement at best.

All I see in your last post is you digging a deeper hole and continuing to say very untrue statement backing them up wiht "I am right." Good for you if you think so, but you are not right to me or plenty of other people. You are also not right that his faith affected past work if this is indeed new news because it wasn't a factor back then.

You are right in your opinion that thier music has gotten worse. You are not right in someone's opinion that their music has gotten better, or stayed the same.

Your comment wasn't asinine humour... it was just asinine. Period. You stand by your statement that being a christian makes one a worse musician... I'll stand by mine that it's an idiodic and false statement and indeed regaurd you for the time being as ignorant as to what being a christian has to do on any leval with being a musician.

I still think it's being a bit overanalyzed. I don't think christianity has anything to do with his level of musicianship. Neal Morse is an insanely good musician and I love his music and the same thing happened to him. Look at what it did to his band, though. Look at what it did to him as a person. It's the way he prioritized things, if he's goign to prioritize God over his music, and he DIDN'T before, it's going to CHANGE things. The fact of the matter is not whether the change is good or bad, it's the fact that the change is so great that it will affect listeners very heavily.

So yeah, if you want to say my opinion is wrong go ahead. But yes, I think his music has been getting progressively worse and if it turns out that this isn't a huge april fools joke, which is very unlikely, I would still think that the fact that he has changed in this way has obviated the fact that his music has changed as well. This didn't really happen with Neal Morse, for instance. He just began writing the same music and the same style that he had always written in, but for different purposes. Here I'm referring to a bigger change.

I don't know how well I can explain it without having interpretations being made from my first post. I think it's pretty general but yeah I was sure some religious people would get mad, I would if it were me, but I would've also let the opinion be had instead of ignorantly thinking I meant something quite seriously saying that all christians make shitty music. That's just not true.

Also it was partially made as a joke, but after looking at it I thought it held some truth. Interpret it how you think. If you think it's a joke and you don't think it's funny, you're allowed to think that, but I obviously got a kick out of it. I mean, doesn't it seem kinda odd that this happens at almost the same time as another big star? Oh well, it's kinda cute at best. Maynard is one of my favorite vocalists so seeing this would be pretty shocking to me, and yea I do think it'd explain how a lot of his music has changed. But the likelihood is low that it's true.

Where's Frank Zappa when you need him?

ah christ, cant we just all get along here?! my god, faith is a personal thing so why cant we leave it at that? instead of continuing to attack each other, cant we just agree to disagree? you know, when in rome?

"take a kraft cheese single, stick it in your ass and rub it in her face. maybe then she'll listen" -CJF

the thing that would make maynard's music and alot of "christian artists" music not listenable is, when they "find christ" that is then the sole lyrical content of whatever they put out, while im sure that is where their heart is dosnt make it a real interesting listen. (theocracy excluded, best christian metal cd of all time ) same goes for the reverse when all a satanic band sings about is satan. pretty boring.....

ORIGINAL: Ultravioelnt

ORIGINAL: Universal mind

I call shens.

Hahaha. Too much GenMay

Lol, well their forum is dying in the arse, let's pick it up here, bring in the shens, repost and smileys and we'll take it from there.

Amen

ORIGINAL: Moonchild

the thing that would make maynard's music and alot of "christian artists" music not listenable is, when they "find christ" that is then the sole lyrical content of whatever they put out, while im sure that is where their heart is dosnt make it a real interesting listen. (theocracy excluded, best christian metal cd of all time ) same goes for the reverse when all a satanic band sings about is satan. pretty boring.....

So by that reasoning, Slayer are boring? I'm sure that many people would argue that, but it's pretty much undisputed they have (or had) quite an edge. I don't think many Christian artists have that edge or intensity for people to take them seriously, there's a lack of conflict and identifiable emotional release. That's why crazed neurotics write the best music. It is the role of the artist to be in sharp, stabbing pain, all the time.

The only way to live is to die while you're alive.

ORIGINAL: DoctorX

ORIGINAL: Firestorm

ORIGINAL: teststumper

Guys like Neal Morse put most secular song writers to shame!

And there it is...not suprised someone brought this up.

I strongly disagree, no disrespect to any of the musicianship on Morse's solo albums, but his new brand of lyrics are pretty damn boring.

Really. I always thought Neal's best lyrics were the ones that were more personal, and less overtly religious. They were silly, meant to be loosely interpreted, and not taken with an overzealous measure of seriousness. Think of the gospels.

Most great songwriters are people with serious cases of fuckuppedness. Drug addicts, alcoholics, manic-depressives, survivors of abuse, incest, or sexual assault. There's also a giant pantheon of disillusioned ex-Catholics and ex-Jews, but that's another story entirely.

His lyrics don't get more personal than on Testimony. AND they're very religious so I don't quite know what to make o fthat statement. HE also used to be a pretty big fuckup before he started writing The Light.

If it's a joke, personal I don't find it funny. For me, when a person discovers a love for Christ it is an intimate experience. It is not a joking matter or something to take lightly or foolheartingly. If Maynard found Christ, bless his heart. If not, bless his heart anyways. If he is joking about it... that's rather cold.

Also, am I the only one who finds Maynard's lyrics preachy? Maynard was surrounded by Baptists when he grew up and I look at his lyrics as a response to what he saw. Of course I haven't done a thorough reading, but I don't remember Maynard personally naming Christ and calling him evil. I remember Maynard complaining that everyone around him were hypocrites and fools. Perhaps I have the message wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

"Bob Hope said freeze and I got numb"

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First of all, basically the statement you made is what is called a "generality". All ______are________! These statements are never true.

Oooooh! Generality! BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!









Steve Z

I'm glad some people agree with me now. It gets boring, hopefully his music doesn't do the same, although for me the newer APC stuff he has done has been pretty bad.

Check out my MYSPACE!

Here are my thoughts on this subject:

1. I have a hard time believing anything Maynard says.

2. From my perspective, Maynard always seemed really turned off to the idea of religion. Thus, this makes believing that the rumor that he found God even more doubtful. Maybe I am wrong, and if so good for him.

3. Tool takes so damn long to make records anyway, so he has plenty of time to convert to Christianity. What did it take, 3 years for Anema and 5 years for Lateralus… Now they are going on four years for the new record. At that pace, Maynard could probably get a degree in Theology and we wouldn’t notice much in Tool’s output.

4. Lastly, I surely don’t think that being a Christian would really have any affect on the quality of the music. Yes, many musicians do find God and thus delve into it big time shrugging off their former styles of music. The biggest example I can think of would be Cat Stevens (Yousef Islam) – he gave up music altogether. However, I am sure that there are many musicians out there who either have found God or have always had some kind of faith, and their music was just as good if not better than before (George Harrison comes to mind). Most I am sure kind of keep it to themselves the way most of us do when carrying out our daily activities.

And all the science I don't understand
It's just my job 5 days a week

I can't believe you gtuys would actually believe somthing like this coming from MJK. Really....think about this hard. Mr. Nard is a very, very, intelligent man and he knows the buzz this will inspire. BS+1.

"So, how many of you actually know who we are? Be honest... how many of you think we are complete nerds?"
-Steven Wilson, Voodoo 07

ORIGINAL: Universal mind

ORIGINAL: Ultravioelnt

ORIGINAL: Universal mind

I call shens.

Hahaha. Too much GenMay

Lol, well their forum is dying in the arse

NEVAH

let's pick it up here, bring in the shens, repost and smileys and we'll take it from there.

This forum is not meant for that kind of fun, mister.

I hope he does find Jesus, maybe then, he can go to confession and ask forgiveness for TOTALLY fucking up "Imagine"

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This smells of a prank if you consider how many instances there are of MJK having an anti-religious view, including APC lyrics. Disustipated, Opiate, Eulogy, and Judith all directly oppose religion, as well as any statements he's made referring to Scientologists or thinking for yourself. And the instances of him "lying" as a joke are even more numerous. It'd be such an about face, it'd practically be hypocritical. Either way, he's letting this hang out there long enough it'll be interesting to see how long it is til there's a followup.

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ORIGINAL: Xaem

So yeah, if you want to say my opinion is wrong go ahead. But yes, I think his music has been getting progressively worse and if it turns out that this isn't a huge april fools joke, which is very unlikely, I would still think that the fact that he has changed in this way has obviated the fact that his music has changed as well. This didn't really happen with Neal Morse, for instance. He just began writing the same music and the same style that he had always written in, but for different purposes. Here I'm referring to a bigger change.

The fact still remains that you are saying him recently becoming a christian caused his previous music to begin sucking. How is that even logical if he wasn't a christian then? If this isn't an april fools joke, then it still didn't affect the music you are talking about.

I think all of this debate is irrelevant. I think the real question is, how will this affect all of the group sex / blood drinking / animal sacrifice that MJK ususally participates in?

are we positive if this is legit or not yet?

ORIGINAL: XeRocks81

are we positive if this is legit or not yet?

That's all I want to know. Sheesh.

http://www.last.fm/user/becomethesea

Can I punch someone?

2112: And the meek shall in-harriet the Earth...

omg..you people!!

~ Swinging On The Spiral Of Our Divinity ~

ORIGINAL: the molecular man

Disustipated, Opiate, Eulogy, and Judith all directly oppose religion, as well as any statements he's made referring to Scientologists or thinking for yourself. And the instances of him "lying" as a joke are even more numerous. It'd be such an about face, it'd practically be hypocritical. Either way, he's letting this hang out there long enough it'll be interesting to see how long it is til there's a followup.

Disgustipated is anti-scientology. Eulogy is also anti-scientology. Judith is anti-blindly following someone/something, which is to say "it is okay to follow, but make sure you investigate where they are going and make sure they are not bogus." You may have a point with Opiate, but I wouldn't be too sure of that. Opiate aside (and even that's a maybe), there are really no anti-Christian or anti-religion Tool songs.

Bad joke: The other day, my keyboard player dropped his keyboard squarely on my crotch, so I punched him in the face. Now my pianist hurts.

Maybe Maynard actually found Jesu, and discovered what a killer drone/doom-metal album the self-titled debut is.

My Personal Site

REAL ULTIMATE DREAM THEATER

ORIGINAL: XeRocks81
His lyrics don't get more personal than on Testimony. AND they're very religious so I don't quite know what to make of that statement. HE also used to be a pretty big fuckup before he started writing The Light.

I think twenty different songs about why Jesus loves you are far less personal than twenty different songs about twenty different shitty things from your life.

I'll also agree that Neal had more problems before he "found God," but that might be why I tend to prefer his early lyrics. Religion can act as a softening influence on shit that would normally make you miserable. It's why the poor are much more likely to be pious than the rich.

When you lose those nervous, anxious thoughts, they don't go into the outlet of your songwriting. That's a detriment right there. I'm not talking about song after song based on pointless self-loathing and misery, that's Morrisey territory. Depressing lyrics full of self-doubt are always good for shouelace gazing mall kids. That’s why Dashboard Confessional can sell so many albums, and not have a single original idea. I miss REAL music for depressed smart kids on major labels, stuff like The Smiths, Pink Floyd, or XTC.

There’s lots of bands who have great music, but shitty lyrcs, or vice-versa. The ability to create both is what separates truly great songwriters from just talented poets and lyricists or musicians and composers.

Great songs will always have that element of tension and conflict. Someone wants something they can’t have, or has something they can’t want. That’s why Lennon and McCartney were worth so much more than the sum of their parts. McCartney was the sappy romantic, and Lennon played the bitter cynic. Well, he didn’t play anything, but it worked. This push and pull dynamic allows for all the trapings of metaphor, ambiguity, irony, and symbolism. When the song has more than one dimension to the dynamic, you can layer the meanings upon meanings, until a pedestrian concept becomes a human interest story. That’s why the Clash had political songs, and The Police had songs about life that only became political at a certain level. The human aspect was more moving than the politics, and that’s what a good song is supposed to do anyway. Move you.

“Goodness Gracious is there nothing left to say?
When the ones who should be watchdogs
are the ones that look away
It’s pabulum for the sleepers
in the cult of brighter days

Goodness Gracious at the mercy of the crooks
We’re broke and stroking vegetables
and there’s way too many cooks
In every pot a pink slip
In every mouth a hook

Goodness Gracious I’m not listening anymore
Cause the spooks are in the White House
and they’ve justified a war
So wake me when they notify
we’re gonna fight some more

Goodness Gracious not many people care
Concern is getting scarcer
true compassion really rare
I can see it on our faces. I can feel it in the air
Goodness Gracious me.

Goodness Gracious my generation’s lost
They burned down all our bridges
before we had a chance to cross
Is it the winter of our discontent or just an early frost?

Goodness Gracious of apathy I sing
The baby boomers had it all and wasted everything
Now recess is almost over
and they won’t get off the swing

Goodness Gracious we came in at the end
No sex that isn’t dangerous, no money left to spend
We’re the cleanup crew for parties
we were too young to attend
Goodness Gracious me.

Goodness Gracious my grandma used to say
The world’s a scary place now,
things were different in her day
What horrors will be commonplace
when my hair starts to grey?”

Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun.

ORIGINAL: DoctorX
I think twenty different songs about why Jesus loves you are far less personal than twenty different songs about twenty different shitty things from your life.

You think.

There's a toilet on the roof.

Pulling out Kevin Gilbert is a good move Doc, you've got me there I think he was one of the best song writers of the last 20 years, and Neal Morse would probably agree. But I still think Neal's newer material is not only about how JEsus Loves you as you put it. One as a nice prodigal son theme running through it that I find very moving. And I'm not talking the religious significance of that particular story, I just think it's a timeless tale of unconditional love.


p.s. By the way, it's not :

When the ones who should be watchdogs
are the ones that look away

but

When the ones who get to keep looking
are the ones that look away

ORIGINAL: DoctorX

ORIGINAL: XeRocks81
His lyrics don't get more personal than on Testimony. AND they're very religious so I don't quite know what to make of that statement. HE also used to be a pretty big fuckup before he started writing The Light.

I think twenty different songs about why Jesus loves you are far less personal than twenty different songs about twenty different shitty things from your life.

I'll also agree that Neal had more problems before he "found God," but that might be why I tend to prefer his early lyrics. Religion can act as a softening influence on shit that would normally make you miserable. It's why the poor are much more likely to be pious than the rich.

When you lose those nervous, anxious thoughts, they don't go into the outlet of your songwriting. That's a detriment right there. I'm not talking about song after song based on pointless self-loathing and misery, that's Morrisey territory. Depressing lyrics full of self-doubt are always good for shouelace gazing mall kids. That’s why Dashboard Confessional can sell so many albums, and not have a single original idea. I miss REAL music for depressed smart kids on major labels, stuff like The Smiths, Pink Floyd, or XTC.

There’s lots of bands who have great music, but shitty lyrcs, or vice-versa. The ability to create both is what separates truly great songwriters from just talented poets and lyricists or musicians and composers.

Great songs will always have that element of tension and conflict. Someone wants something they can’t have, or has something they can’t want. That’s why Lennon and McCartney were worth so much more than the sum of their parts. McCartney was the sappy romantic, and Lennon played the bitter cynic. Well, he didn’t play anything, but it worked. This push and pull dynamic allows for all the trapings of metaphor, ambiguity, irony, and symbolism. When the song has more than one dimension to the dynamic, you can layer the meanings upon meanings, until a pedestrian concept becomes a human interest story. That’s why the Clash had political songs, and The Police had songs about life that only became political at a certain level. The human aspect was more moving than the politics, and that’s what a good song is supposed to do anyway. Move you.

Your subposition is based on the idea that christians don't have conflict, or write about conflicts in thier lives. It also shows that you haven't looked very far into christian songwriting.

Is this really true ? My 1st time hearing this.

I grew up in a christian home so i do have my beliefs, etc...
But man that is like a double edged sword...

I'm glad Maynard found Jesus (if he in fact did) but man what an averse effect it will have on Tool.

To me the whole underlying theme behind tool is in someways bashing christianity - the obvious line in eulogy, the chorus in Aenima (preacher in his pulpit etc) the cover artwork for Opiate, and many more...

I'd find it hard to see Maynard singing these lyrics live if he was now a christian.

I find this hard to believe still...

My Site - www.drumphil.ca
www.obsidianmusic.ca

A further update: it looks like it's official. MTV News just reported it, with an air of skeptecism themselves, but meh. Here's the link for anyone interested:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1499613/04052005/tool.jhtml

http://www.last.fm/user/becomethesea

MTV news? LOL. My bet is that the Tool gang are laughing their asses off with this one. I mean come on, this was posted on April's Fools. It would be too much of a concidence.
It will be a couple days till Maynard bores himself of this and goes back to eating fetuses and stuff.

Yeah, this is most likely a big joke. If it were real I think they would have had the foresight to not release it on April Fool's Day. That being said, if it were actually true then Tool and A Perfect Circle would be dead to me.

ORIGINAL: WakefulSleep


Disgustipated is anti-scientology. Eulogy is also anti-scientology. Judith is anti-blindly following someone/something, which is to say "it is okay to follow, but make sure you investigate where they are going and make sure they are not bogus." You may have a point with Opiate, but I wouldn't be too sure of that. Opiate aside (and even that's a maybe), there are really no anti-Christian or anti-religion Tool songs.

I agree with what you said, cept I think those songs are generally anti-religion, verses a specific anti-Scientology or anti-Christian. I find both those religions, or any organized religion to fit the themes of those songs, as they can refer to a priest, a televangelist, or even L. Ron Hubbard. Which subsequently is why I find it next to impossible to buy Maynard turning to any form of organized worship, on April 1st, and in light of the recent Munky from Korn conversion. We'll see, though it does definitely smell of publicity stunt.

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It was posted March 31st, not on April Fools. Several days later and it's still an April Fools joke???? Not likely.

ORIGINAL: mesavox

It was posted March 31st, not on April Fools. Several days later and it's still an April Fools joke???? Not likely.

Well, then it IS likely that Tool is dead to me.

ORIGINAL: P

ORIGINAL: mesavox

It was posted March 31st, not on April Fools. Several days later and it's still an April Fools joke???? Not likely.

Well, then it IS likely that Tool is dead to me.

If Maynard leaves Tool, then Tool is probably a dead issue anyway. If Maynard doesn't leave Tool then why on Earth would Tool be dead to you? Depending on how profound his "event" was, no one knows the future of Tool or Maynard. Perhaps Maynard found Christ but will attend Church just like every other faithful, but retain his position as lead singer of Tool. Sure Tool may be slightly "unchristian" in the loosest sense of the word and through the eyes of some heavy conservatists, but in my humble opinion, I don't see Tool as the spawn of satan, prince of darkness that the hardliners think it is. I listen to Tool and even know a few other religious who also listen to Tool. Maybe Maynard will just move to political issues and issues of the soul. His last album to me was very spiritual (well maybe Ticks and Leeches wasn't all that spiritual ) and I don't see any reason for Maynard to crank out heavy Christian themed folk songs unless that is the direction he wants to take.

I really hope Maynard stays with Tool. No reason for him to leave unless that's what he wants. If he thinks Tool will get in the way, then he might as well hang it up. But in my humble opinion, I see no reason for him to quit even if he found Christ.

"Bob Hope said freeze and I got numb"

My Flickr Account (updated 9/12/09) / My Blog / MySpace

ORIGINAL: mesavox

It was posted March 31st, not on April Fools. Several days later and it's still an April Fools joke???? Not likely.

Wrong. It was first posted on April 1st, and the post date reflected that. Then they changed the post date to make it look like it was posted on the 31st.

I think of it this way...

Maynard is an extremely intellectual person. If he were to have taken a position of faith in God, then more than likely he really struggled and wrestled with this decision, looking for every single issue, to test everything and approach his decision with the utmost of confidence in this. Some enter into faith simply believing what others say, others enter into it through their own conviction and study.

For him to take this, to me, it would not make his intellectual station depreciate; moreso appreciate, as he really went through a lot to be where he would be.

Of course, as nothing is confirmed or denied, it's all hearsay until confirmed by the man himself.

"..Belphegor, I should note, has been credited with assuring regular bowel movements, so perhaps he might have a lasting effect on constipated mages."

ORIGINAL: Godzilla

I think of it this way...

Maynard is an extremely intellectual person. If he were to have taken a position of faith in God, then more than likely he really struggled and wrestled with this decision, looking for every single issue, to test everything and approach his decision with the utmost of confidence in this. Some enter into faith simply believing what others say, others enter into it through their own conviction and study.

For him to take this, to me, it would not make his intellectual station depreciate; moreso appreciate, as he really went through a lot to be where he would be.

Of course, as nothing is confirmed or denied, it's all hearsay until confirmed by the man himself.

Agreed. I always look at Maynard's lyrics as extremely lettered, thought provoking, poetic and in some cases flat out brilliant. If he found Christ, I doubt he would take the "Born-Again" Hard liner direction and just incorporate his struggles into his music. Best example is "Patient", a very profound and deeply spiritual song. If he expanded on such an idea, I can't see how it would effect Tool negatively. In fact, I think it would strengthen it. Maynard is very opinionated, and his opinions are often quite moving.

"Bob Hope said freeze and I got numb"

My Flickr Account (updated 9/12/09) / My Blog / MySpace

ORIGINAL: Monk

ORIGINAL: P

ORIGINAL: mesavox

It was posted March 31st, not on April Fools. Several days later and it's still an April Fools joke???? Not likely.

Well, then it IS likely that Tool is dead to me.

If Maynard leaves Tool, then Tool is probably a dead issue anyway. If Maynard doesn't leave Tool then why on Earth would Tool be dead to you? Depending on how profound his "event" was, no one knows the future of Tool or Maynard. Perhaps Maynard found Christ but will attend Church just like every other faithful, but retain his position as lead singer of Tool. Sure Tool may be slightly "unchristian" in the loosest sense of the word and through the eyes of some heavy conservatists, but in my humble opinion, I don't see Tool as the spawn of satan, prince of darkness that the hardliners think it is. I listen to Tool and even know a few other religious who also listen to Tool. Maybe Maynard will just move to political issues and issues of the soul. His last album to me was very spiritual (well maybe Ticks and Leeches wasn't all that spiritual ) and I don't see any reason for Maynard to crank out heavy Christian themed folk songs unless that is the direction he wants to take.

I really hope Maynard stays with Tool. No reason for him to leave unless that's what he wants. If he thinks Tool will get in the way, then he might as well hang it up. But in my humble opinion, I see no reason for him to quit even if he found Christ.

I suppose that I'm operating under the assumption that if the songwriter for a popular band quite publicly declares that he is devoting his life to christianity, his lyrics are going to inevitably become Christian based. And that would ruin Tool for me. It isn't that I think that Tool are a satanic band by any means- I wouldn't listen to them then anyway. But what I do know that I really, really don't like christian-themed music. The reason for this doesn't really matter here. Suffice to say that if Maynard were to sing for any band, not just Tool, with christian lyrics I won't listen.