SANCTIONED : DT World Tour 2011 / 2012 Discussion Thread

i'm laughing and infuriated at the same time. i can be a nit picker sometimes but if some of you nit pickers tried your hand at the banjo, Bela Fleck would be out of a job.

That pissed you off huh? Sorry, I was teasing.

progjammer


So in summary, what I am trying to say is like it or not the fans are getting older (and arguably more mature) and priorities are overriding. I'm sure I am not the only one in this situation. So stop over analyzing the crowd situation and blaming it on who's in or out of the band, or what setlist they are playing. Things are definately more uncertain lateley, and if you are lucky enough to make it to a show just get yourself there and enjoy the show.

 
How about stop telling those of us that DO value the setlist and DO value the membership how to think and what to do?   I'm very glad (sincerely) you get the opportunity to share this with your daughter, but if you were right in your assessment, the crowds would be INCREASING because of the people bringing their kids.  Everyone is all over Kiss for having Tommy and Eric in the band, everyone was all over Van Halen for Wolfgang, why are we bad for having the same opinion, where arguably it actually matters more?
 
The cheap shots are getting a little tiring.  I'm anything but "spoilt" or "entitled" or "self-serving".  I'm just sharing, in case anyone cares (clearly they do not) what I choose to spend my money on and why.

I hope, they record "The Great Debate" for the DVD!

Stadler

The cheap shots are getting a little tiring.  I'm anything but "spoilt" or "entitled" or "self-serving".  I'm just sharing, in case anyone cares (clearly they do not) what I choose to spend my money on and why.

They really are.  I get so annoyed when I see people posting stuff telling us that we are so fortunate that basically we should keep our mouths shut and not have an opinion.

Stadler


^^^ Only in the Philipines.  :) 

HAHA! I think it was in Indonesia. A7X here a couple of months ago, and if Portnoy was still playing I'd definitely watch.

Yeah, I think you are right, it was Indonesia.  It was a joke, though, and I appreciate you not getting offended.  I only meant to poke some fun at the twitters that don't pay attention.

The back and forth needs to stay civilized or bans will start.
Keep it on topic which is about the tour itself not about money, who is entitled, or talking trash about members or ex-members.
 
Everyone is able to speak their opinion but the personal attacks need to stop.

What?

Stadler

The cheap shots are getting a little tiring.  I'm anything but "spoilt" or "entitled" or "self-serving".  I'm just sharing, in case anyone cares (clearly they do not) what I choose to spend my money on and why.

 
Word. 
 
Personal opinion: the pitchfork attitude of those who say rotating setlists are not a valid reason for not attending multiple dates is incredibly tiring.

I know it's not easy to do, but it would seem like a good idea to me that giving the benefit of the doubt to the band would help assuage some of the ill-feelings. That, and patience.
 
Let's remember that MM has only been in the band just a little over a year, and I would not expect him to be able to play all of their songs for the purpose of continually-rotating setlists just yet. Give it time.
 
Let's also give James some time to come more into his own as the main frontman. He got help from MP when MP was still in the band, as a sort of duality of frontmen. There's no doubt MP had much more of a role as a frontman than MM ever will, so it will be up to JLB to step it up and that takes time.
 
Patience is also needed to see where DT truly will go with MM as a part of the creative song-writing process. I can appreciate his contributions to ADToE, but I'm hoping he will really shine on an album that he has a much bigger role in making.
 
Also, there's probably quite a noted difference in how the songs are played when it comes to feel, with MP being more of a driving slightly-ahead-of-the-beat drummer, and MM being more of a pocket, slightly-behind-the-beat drummer. Since my own playing tends to be less driving and more in-the-pocket and slightly behind the beat, my own opinion is that MM fits the music quite comfortably, but for others it may seem too different to be enjoyable. On certain songs (especially on the newer albums), I couldn't quite connect to MP's playing because it felt rushed. But hopefully MM's playing will enable another evolution of how DT creates and plays the music, due to feel.
 
More benefit of the doubt should be given to the fact that if there were so many tensions between MP and JLB, sometimes it's OK for a partnership to not work out. JLB feels (it seems) more free to have a voice in the direction of the music, and at the very least I enjoyed his vocal performance on ADToE much better than on some previous albums. He seems more relaxed and focused, so good on him. If that is one of the better outcomes from this split, then that's a positive. I'm not pinning any lackluster performance blame on MP at all, but it is evident (as everyone has said) that tensions were higher near the end of DT's time with MP. That's a shame, but sometimes it is for the best.
 
This being the tour from the first album after MP's departure, it may be prudent to let some things go - give some more benefit of the doubt. Here's hoping that DT only gets better from here on out. I for one don't want to see them fail, even without MP. Where would that get us? MP leaves, which is bad enough, but DT failing and breaking up? Who would want that?
 
By the way, I am very sad I never got to see DT with MP live. I have some of the concert DVD's so I'll have to live with that. Score was such an incredible concert. But maybe one of these days I'll actually get a chance to see DT with MM. Here's hoping for the next album / tour cycle!

DT2003



They really are.  I get so annoyed when I see people posting stuff telling us that we are so fortunate that basically we should keep our mouths shut and not have an opinion.

 
I can't speak for anyone else who has posted in this thread, only myself, but my post was not designed to imply anyone should "keep their mouths shut and not have an opinion", and nothing in what I wrote could be implied to even suggest that. It is hardly the 'fault' of anyone to happen to live in a place where a certain band happens to tour a lot, and if people choose not to go to a show multiple times for whatever reason and express their reasons why, then it's fine with me. As someone above said, there are plenty of bands who mainly play Europe as opposed to the States, so in that sense, it all evens out. That's not the point of what was written before. About the actual issue of concert attendance, I couldn't care less, and it's not what I was getting at. Nobody in DT is gonna have to eat in a soup kitchen any time soon, they're touring, making music, happy doing it, and fans have a choice to partake in what they're doing.
 
What grates with me (and apparently others) are these strident, self-important statements such as "I REFUSE to go to another DT show until they rotate their sets again," and "I've seen them 14 times, but that was my last, I'm NOT paying money to see the same damn setlist 6 months after the last time!" Well, ok, I guess you have spoken. You see, it's the TONE of some (only some - this message and my last are not directed at you, DT2003) of the posts in this thread, the angry and - yes - self-entitled personal offense taken towards a band choosing to play a fixed set. In my first post I was trying to get across the point that some on here can have absolutely no conception how irritating this TONE (NOT the content) is to us in the rest of the world who don't have these opportunities to see bands, I mean messages which follow the structure of "Well, yeah, I saw them for the 39th time back in 2008, it was a cool 'Evening With' show, they played completely different songs to the night before. After the show I met the guys, and that was kinda cool too, JP comped me for 2 Swedish hookers, Labrie cooked me up a casserole and Myung gave my 7-year-old son elocution lessons. It was really neat of the guys to do that. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't perfect, I felt James put too much salt in the casserole, but it was still a great night. Next morning the guys waxed my asshole, pimped my Hyundai into a Maserati, and serenaded me as I drove away with an impromptu rendition of Never Enough. I was satisfied. But THIS time?? They played the SAME damn songs! I will NOT go again. I REFUSE! They will have NO MORE of my money!"
 
I'm exaggerating for affect of course, but my point is valid. It's not a discussion of why people choose not to go to shows anymore. It's the element (small, but vocal) in this thread which write in this grating, staccato, personally-offended style about how they will NOT!! again go until DT ROTATE!! the setlist, and the ENERGY!! comes back. You see? It's one thing, and a perfectly fine thing, to have an opinion on the state of a band, and to express your feelings about their music and their concerts, but there's no way of getting around it (I repeat - I'm not addressing this to you, DT2003), there simply IS so much entitlement in this thread, and THAT'S what is grating to those of us who are lucky if we get one chance every 2 years to see this group. Being disappointed in the fixed setlists and declining to pay money to see their shows any more is perfectly ok, but to express it in such a personally affronted and critical way, as some have here, is outrageous self-importance. DT, Mike Portnoy, AMOB, Flying Colors, whatever, any band in the world, they bust their asses to walk the fine line between doing what they want to do and also keeping the fans happy, only for a (again, it's small, but very vocal) minority to just disregard all that and piss and whine about the smallest details which they did not like.
 
Once again, I am NOT saying that people shouldn't be able to express what they feel, and to criticise elements they do not like. But this self-important, hyper-critical tone needs to be reigned in.  
 
 

Love the post! Spot on and hilarious! Saw them twice at PNC and Atlantic City. Identical sets, but kick ass shows both times. If they were in the Philly area next week with the same set, I'd go again. It might be the same thing as having sex with your girlfirend/wife of 15 years. You know what's coming, and how its going to end, but its still great and you're happy you were there to enjoy it.
 
Nuff said.
 
DanLore

I can definitely see your point now and sorry that I misinterpreted what you originally said.

^^ All is fine mate, just a minor misunderstanding, nothing more.

electech98

Also, there's probably quite a noted difference in how the songs are played when it comes to feel, with MP being more of a driving slightly-ahead-of-the-beat drummer, and MM being more of a pocket, slightly-behind-the-beat drummer. Since my own playing tends to be less driving and more in-the-pocket and slightly behind the beat, my own opinion is that MM fits the music quite comfortably, but for others it may seem too different to be enjoyable. On certain songs (especially on the newer albums), I couldn't quite connect to MP's playing because it felt rushed. But hopefully MM's playing will enable another evolution of how DT creates and plays the music, due to feel.

 
Man do I agree with this!
 
The FIRST thing I noticed when I heard MM playing with DT was how awesomely he kept the tempo of the songs throughout them. It was something I never heard DT do before, and I know it's just a matter of taste, but I really disliked how much MP would speed up the songs. It must have been somewhat uncomfortable for the other guys as well, given the fact that the songs are complicated enough as they are.
 
It put such a smile on my face when I noticed the tempo was being kept throughout the songs :)

Yeah Stream of Consciousness comes to mind.

Stadler


Yeah, I think you are right, it was Indonesia.  It was a joke, though, and I appreciate you not getting offended.  I only meant to poke some fun at the twitters that don't pay attention.

 
Its all good! I found it really funny that you used that phrase. We Filipino's LOOOOOOVE poking fun at other countries and other races, but when someone makes fun of us, expect to get bashed online by the million overly sensitive Filipinos or expect a senate hearing. Seriously, that happened here.
 
Back to topic though, I realized how MM was on a spot-on tempo while watching a video of Endless Sacrifice. Crazy consistent that I almost found it too slow compared to MP's live playing. Did they ever use a click live?

I wouldn't think so.
 
Is Jordan triggering the sampled vocal harmonies, or is it the FOH?

electech98


More benefit of the doubt should be given to the fact that if there were so many tensions between MP and JLB, sometimes it's OK for a partnership to not work out. JLB feels (it seems) more free to have a voice in the direction of the music, and at the very least I enjoyed his vocal performance on ADToE much better than on some previous albums. He seems more relaxed and focused, so good on him. If that is one of the better outcomes from this split, then that's a positive. I'm not pinning any lackluster performance blame on MP at all, but it is evident (as everyone has said) that tensions were higher near the end of DT's time with MP. That's a shame, but sometimes it is for the best.

Good post.  I don't agree with a lot of it, but it is well-thought out, and well-written.  I have to comment on this though.  The underlying assumption for a statement like this is that both sides are equal and relevant and worthy of our patience.  And you know what?  At the risk of ruffling feathers, for me they aren't.  I have every DT album, even the one without James.  I have many (not all, but most) of the albums MP plays on even those outside DT, but for James?  I have Winter Rose and one solo album.  I won't be buying any more.  If there was a beef between JLB and MP, and one had to go?  For me it isn't even close that the wrong guy is no longer in the band.  Now, I'm not saying that that is the only reason that a change happened, and I don't think for a second that had JLB left that all would be roses.  But, and I speak for myself here, I'm not interested in JLB's greater influence on the music.  I want more of Mike's influence.  Nothing against James, as I think he is a phenomenal singer, one of my favorites, but FOR ME, James is not Mike's equal on any level.    

Dave_Manchester

DT2003



They really are.  I get so annoyed when I see people posting stuff telling us that we are so fortunate that basically we should keep our mouths shut and not have an opinion.

I can't speak for anyone else who has posted in this thread, only myself, but my post was not designed to imply anyone should "keep their mouths shut and not have an opinion", and nothing in what I wrote could be implied to even suggest that. It is hardly the 'fault' of anyone to happen to live in a place where a certain band happens to tour a lot, and if people choose not to go to a show multiple times for whatever reason and express their reasons why, then it's fine with me. As someone above said, there are plenty of bands who mainly play Europe as opposed to the States, so in that sense, it all evens out. That's not the point of what was written before. About the actual issue of concert attendance, I couldn't care less, and it's not what I was getting at. Nobody in DT is gonna have to eat in a soup kitchen any time soon, they're touring, making music, happy doing it, and fans have a choice to partake in what they're doing.

What grates with me (and apparently others) are these strident, self-important statements such as "I REFUSE to go to another DT show until they rotate their sets again," and "I've seen them 14 times, but that was my last, I'm NOT paying money to see the same damn setlist 6 months after the last time!" Well, ok, I guess you have spoken. You see, it's the TONE of some (only some - this message and my last are not directed at you, DT2003) of the posts in this thread, the angry and - yes - self-entitled personal offense taken towards a band choosing to play a fixed set. In my first post I was trying to get across the point that some on here can have absolutely no conception how irritating this TONE (NOT the content) is to us in the rest of the world who don't have these opportunities to see bands, I mean messages which follow the structure of "Well, yeah, I saw them for the 39th time back in 2008, it was a cool 'Evening With' show, they played completely different songs to the night before. After the show I met the guys, and that was kinda cool too, JP comped me for 2 Swedish hookers, Labrie cooked me up a casserole and Myung gave my 7-year-old son elocution lessons. It was really neat of the guys to do that. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't perfect, I felt James put too much salt in the casserole, but it was still a great night. Next morning the guys waxed my asshole, pimped my Hyundai into a Maserati, and serenaded me as I drove away with an impromptu rendition of Never Enough. I was satisfied. But THIS time?? They played the SAME damn songs! I will NOT go again. I REFUSE! They will have NO MORE of my money!"

I'm exaggerating for affect of course, but my point is valid. It's not a discussion of why people choose not to go to shows anymore. It's the element (small, but vocal) in this thread which write in this grating, staccato, personally-offended style about how they will NOT!! again go until DT ROTATE!! the setlist, and the ENERGY!! comes back. You see? It's one thing, and a perfectly fine thing, to have an opinion on the state of a band, and to express your feelings about their music and their concerts, but there's no way of getting around it (I repeat - I'm not addressing this to you, DT2003), there simply IS so much entitlement in this thread, and THAT'S what is grating to those of us who are lucky if we get one chance every 2 years to see this group. Being disappointed in the fixed setlists and declining to pay money to see their shows any more is perfectly ok, but to express it in such a personally affronted and critical way, as some have here, is outrageous self-importance. DT, Mike Portnoy, AMOB, Flying Colors, whatever, any band in the world, they bust their asses to walk the fine line between doing what they want to do and also keeping the fans happy, only for a (again, it's small, but very vocal) minority to just disregard all that and piss and whine about the smallest details which they did not like.

Once again, I am NOT saying that people shouldn't be able to express what they feel, and to criticise elements they do not like. But this self-important, hyper-critical tone needs to be reigned in.  

I thought abuot sending this as a PM, and maybe I should have, but you know what, Dave, I WAS one of those guys that said - absent some new development - that I probably would not be seeing DT again, and I cited the setlist as one of the reasons why.  In doing so, I may even have said "I REFUSE to see DT unless and until they rotate their setlists again!"  Presumably, I have therefore violated your rules for what constitutes a valid and acceptable post.   But like the person that goes to a steak restuarant because they like steak, it is one of the things I weigh in when I go see a band.  I love Kiss as much as any band, and yep, seen them over 20 times.  Probably won't go again unless it is to show my daugher what it's all about because frankly, I've heard all those songs live multiple times.  Why is that bad? 
 
I am far from "entitled".  I have been lucky enough to travel the world and know full well that I have access to and opportunity for things that most of the world's population does not.  That factors in to many of the decisions I make on a daily basis, so please don't take one comment in the specific context of a very narrow conversation and blow it out of proportion.  I'll give you "self-important" - hahaha - but really, I think you're way overstating things, and I find it hard to believe that my offense of being unequivocal in what I am willing to spend my money on is really that much more offensive than your blanket assesment of my character as a human being, and that of others in this thread.   You're a good, thoughtful guy who brings a ton to the table (I read every word of most of your posts, for what it's worth) and on this one, I feel you are over the line. 
 

"I may even have said "I REFUSE to see DT unless and until they rotate their setlists again!"  Presumably, I have therefore violated your rules for what constitutes a valid and acceptable post"
 
You see, I can say much the same about you Stadler, you're clearly a very bright guy, but sometimes your posts baffle me. As a man trained as a lawyer, i.e the art of paying inordinate attention to details and being extremely careful about the use and interpretation of words, how on earth do you draw that "presumption" from a post which was deliberately littered with lines such as "It is one thing - and a perfectly fine thing - to have an opinion on the state of a band and why you choose not to see them anymore", and "people expressing their reasons why they don't want to pay to see shows anymore is absolutely fine with me"? Sarcasm is not a toy, mate, you're in the the heady company of Swift and Orwell when you attempt it - point being, which part of my (yes, it was a pain-stakingly worded post, I took unusual care over the wording so as not to lay it open to unreasonable extrapolations) message led you to the idea that I was laying down "rules for valid and acceptable posts"? I can't see how you possibly extrapolated that, you especially, as a lawyer and (here's a presumption) used to the careful reading of words and disdain of embellishment, presumption and reading into things which are simply not there. If, as you imply, you respect my mind and perception, why do you need to go overboard into this exaggerated, self-consciously sarcastic tabloid style of how I'm laying down "rules for acceptable posts", when I busted a literary nut to say the precise OPPOSITE of that? Just another example from your post:
 
 "...please don't take one comment in the specific context of a very narrow conversation and blow it out of proportion..."
 
and a few lines later...
 
"... I find it hard to believe that my offense of being unequivocal in what I am willing to spend my money on is really that much more offensive than your blanket assesment of my character as a human being"
 
I'm a Brit, I adore irony, but I have to repeat: come again?? Leaving aside our apparently mutual disdain of "blowing things out of proportion", where on earth have I made a "blanket assessment of your character as a human being"?? Why the hell use the word "offense" in this context? This is lazy writing, laboured sarcasm, you of all people given your profession shouldn't resort to this, it's willful re-writing and misinterpretation of what someone wrote. 
 
Look, neither you nor I want to argue with each other over something so trivial, I respect your talents as a writer and debater, and again I can say the same to you as you said to me, you're one of the people on here whose posts I take care to read every word of carefully, because I know you lay stuff down very deliberately, but sometimes you commit the very same "offenses" that you are the first person to criticise in others (willful exaggeration, unreasonable extrapolation, etc) but because you do it in such a (comparatively, for the internet) sophisticated way it tends to go unmentioned in several of your posts. The above are examples of such. 
 
Just once again, I'll say (though I'm merely repeating almost word for word what I've already written): not going to a concert because you don't like the setlist is absolutely, perfectly fine. But the angry, disrespectful TONE with which SOME people express their disdain for the remaining members of DT is skirting the boundaries of self-entitlement. Not saying YOU have ever done that, but some on here have. That's all I was saying, and if you can possibly find more than that in my post (sweeping character assessments of people I've never met included), I invite your analysis.  

"But the angry, disrespectful TONE with which SOME people express their disdain for the remaining members of DT is skirting the boundaries of self-entitlement."
 
Those members have been put on vacation for those posts.

And just an addendum to what I've just written - not one word of my last 3 posts were addressed to any of the regular posters in this thread, not DT2003, and not you, Stadler. If you've seen yourself in the words I wrote, it's not because of the words I wrote. I was writing about 6 or 7 casual users throughout these 59 pages which, if you go back through the pages of this thread, have gone very far over the line in their manner of expressing their opinion on DT, MP, etc, they just kept on digging away and digging away in a totally disrespectful tone. I bit my lip and held my peace for a long time, but the more they kept doing it, the harder it became to not say something. I've been very careful not to quote those messages (I wanted to every time they were written, but didn't), because it's not my place to be the judge of what is disrespectful or to get anyone into trouble, but in light of Nippet's post above, they simply ARE there if you go back through the posts, and I'm glad it's been taken care of, because it was just too much, some of the messages in this thread have actually been potentially libelous, and the sheer weight of arrogance and entitlement towards musicians just trying to (again, I put it in these terms) follow their musical souls, but also trying to do the best by their fan-base, is disgraceful. I'm NOT talking about people saying they're disappointed in the selists and explaining why they choose not to go to concerts any more, such as you, or DT2003. That is perfectly fine, when you do it, it's respectfully expressed. I'm talking about other posts, which I cannot quote here in public (again, they've been taken care of already by the mods), but I will happily do so in PM if you want a better idea of what finally broke the camel's back and made me weigh in to this debate. 
 
This forum has been through a tough time. As Marlene wrote tonight in another thread, most of us here are prog fans, she knows that, and Mike knows that, but first and foremost, we're also massive MP fans, otherwise we wouldn't be here reading and posting almost every day, and at the moment, those 2 entities are not part of the same sphere. We all have opinions about that, and hopes about the future of MP and DT, but ultimately, anyone who writes here has to be respectful towards both MP's present projects, and the group to which he gave his heart and soul for 25 years and which we all still love (some of us less than when he was in it, but anyway, still love). 
 
So those will be my last thoughts on this subject, because this thread needs to get on back topic and discuss DT's tour. In closing I'll just repeat that my comments were directed at a small but disgraceful set of comments in this thread, NOT yours, and not any other regular user of this forum. 

Stadler

electech98


More benefit of the doubt should be given to the fact that if there were so many tensions between MP and JLB, sometimes it's OK for a partnership to not work out. JLB feels (it seems) more free to have a voice in the direction of the music, and at the very least I enjoyed his vocal performance on ADToE much better than on some previous albums. He seems more relaxed and focused, so good on him. If that is one of the better outcomes from this split, then that's a positive. I'm not pinning any lackluster performance blame on MP at all, but it is evident (as everyone has said) that tensions were higher near the end of DT's time with MP. That's a shame, but sometimes it is for the best.

Good post.  I don't agree with a lot of it, but it is well-thought out, and well-written.  I have to comment on this though.  The underlying assumption for a statement like this is that both sides are equal and relevant and worthy of our patience.  And you know what?  At the risk of ruffling feathers, for me they aren't.  I have every DT album, even the one without James.  I have many (not all, but most) of the albums MP plays on even those outside DT, but for James?  I have Winter Rose and one solo album.  I won't be buying any more.  If there was a beef between JLB and MP, and one had to go?  For me it isn't even close that the wrong guy is no longer in the band.  Now, I'm not saying that that is the only reason that a change happened, and I don't think for a second that had JLB left that all would be roses.  But, and I speak for myself here, I'm not interested in JLB's greater influence on the music.  I want more of Mike's influence.  Nothing against James, as I think he is a phenomenal singer, one of my favorites, but FOR ME, James is not Mike's equal on any level.    

 
Yeah, in the end it really is subjective according to what sort of sound and energy and interaction more resonates with you as a fan.
 
From a certain fan's perspective (like mine), if they've watched the various documentaries and kept up with the musical trends of DT over the past few albums, such a fan could reasonably come to the conclusion that MP continued to exert a certain amount of control in the musical direction of writing and recording, control that was a good amount above what other members in the band (especially JLB) had. From interviews and documentaries, I get the impression that this control of MP's increased over time, possibly contributing to the tensions and the increased disinterest in certain other members of the band (JM?) during the writing process. I would also venture a guess (though this is pure speculation at this point, and is not aimed at ruffling feathers or putting anyone down) that had MP not been in the band or had less control during the writing of SC and BC&SL (or possibly even ToT), we may not have heard such "interesting" tidbits in some of the songs such as the (albeit toned down) growling in the first song of BC&SL, the rapping in ToT, the straight metal (with a very pronounced kick drum sound) of songs like The Dark Eternal Night, etc. Whether or not those things are mainly due to MP's influence, I can't say for certain, but I do remember some interviews or documentaries that seemed to imply that MP's listening habits were often the cause of such tidbits, things that one wouldn't normally expect to hear from a mainly progressive rock band. Personally, for me, those tidbits are more of a turn-off because they seem most unnatural coming from DT (JLB especially).
 
As such, if an album such as ADToE is the result of the other members in DT being forced (in a way) to take a bigger role in the creative writing process, and if JLB is able to put out a great performance on that record in the way that he did as a result of purposing to not feel pressured and recording the vocals where he feels comfortable (per certain interviews), I am all for that. So, subjectively, I am more of a fan of the direction DT took with ADToE than that of SC and BC&SL. The lyrical direction of SC and BC&SL also contributed to my ranking them lower in the DT catalog for me. ADToE ranks as one of my favorites of DT, in the company of Awake, SFaM, and 6DoIT. Others may disagree, and that is totally fine; I respect that everyone has their own musical tastes. I only tell you all this so you know a little more about what musical / lyrical styles in DT have connected with me more, as opposed to what others have connected with.
 
As a side-note, I am in love with Flying Colors and have found it a very refreshing change of pace for MP. As hard as it is to think about sometimes, I think he needed this split from DT, as much as DT maybe needed the split from MP. That way MP could divide his many musical focuses into the metal of Adrenaline Mob, and the prog of something like Flying Colors. And DT could make an album absent the more hard metal/growly tidbits that some of the other members may not have been a fan of. Hindsight being 20/20, though, the previous sentences may be taken with a few grains of salt.
 
Anyways, good thoughts Stadler, and I appreciate your response to my post. :)

Misunderstandings happen. Can we just go back to talking about the tour? :)

kaos2900

Pretty much this. James crowd interaction is far and away much better than it used to be. Also, Myung got up on the drum riser several times as well which I have never seen. And it is true in my opinon.

Uh James *may* be slightly more active than before, but nothing majorly significant as is implied by some fans. And I say that as someone who's seen the band numerous times since 93.
 
Regarding JM, have a look at the BCaSL tourbook. You'll find a Chaos in Motion-era photo of JM not only on the drum riser, but actually behind the drums playing bass next to MP. And I don't believe that was a one-time occurrence either.

Dave_Manchester


"I may even have said "I REFUSE to see DT unless and until they rotate their setlists again!"  Presumably, I have therefore violated your rules for what constitutes a valid and acceptable post"

You see, I can say much the same about you Stadler, you're clearly a very bright guy, but sometimes your posts baffle me. As a man trained as a lawyer, i.e the art of paying inordinate attention to details and being extremely careful about the use and interpretation of words, how on earth do you draw that "presumption" from a post which was deliberately littered with lines such as "It is one thing - and a perfectly fine thing - to have an opinion on the state of a band and why you choose not to see them anymore", and "people expressing their reasons why they don't want to pay to see shows anymore is absolutely fine with me"? Sarcasm is not a toy, mate, you're in the the heady company of Swift and Orwell when you attempt it - point being, which part of my (yes, it was a pain-stakingly worded post, I took unusual care over the wording so as not to lay it open to unreasonable extrapolations) message led you to the idea that I was laying down "rules for valid and acceptable posts"? I can't see how you possibly extrapolated that, you especially, as a lawyer and (here's a presumption) used to the careful reading of words and disdain of embellishment, presumption and reading into things which are simply not there. If, as you imply, you respect my mind and perception, why do you need to go overboard into this exaggerated, self-consciously sarcastic tabloid style of how I'm laying down "rules for acceptable posts", when I busted a literary nut to say the precise OPPOSITE of that? Just another example from your post:

"...please don't take one comment in the specific context of a very narrow conversation and blow it out of proportion..."

and a few lines later...

"... I find it hard to believe that my offense of being unequivocal in what I am willing to spend my money on is really that much more offensive than your blanket assesment of my character as a human being"

I'm a Brit, I adore irony, but I have to repeat: come again?? Leaving aside our apparently mutual disdain of "blowing things out of proportion", where on earth have I made a "blanket assessment of your character as a human being"?? Why the hell use the word "offense" in this context? This is lazy writing, laboured sarcasm, you of all people given your profession shouldn't resort to this, it's willful re-writing and misinterpretation of what someone wrote. 

 
All in the interest of understanding, since I have no real beef with you...
 
Blanket assessment:  assuming I, and people like me, are "spoilt" and "entitled" because we value something - rotating setlists - that you do not.  For whatever reason. The notion of "entitlement" is not one to be thrown lightly.  And except for the comment on the "rules", there was no intended sarcasm; in fact, just the opposite.  I actually thought twice about including that line for that very reason.  I resort to it on occasion, but not a fan of sarcasm, much, unless it is also funny (and more often than not it isn't). 
 

Look, neither you nor I want to argue with each other over something so trivial, I respect your talents as a writer and debater, and again I can say the same to you as you said to me, you're one of the people on here whose posts I take care to read every word of carefully, because I know you lay stuff down very deliberately, but sometimes you commit the very same "offenses" that you are the first person to criticise in others (willful exaggeration, unreasonable extrapolation, etc) but because you do it in such a (comparatively, for the internet) sophisticated way it tends to go unmentioned in several of your posts. The above are examples of such. 

Just once again, I'll say (though I'm merely repeating almost word for word what I've already written): not going to a concert because you don't like the setlist is absolutely, perfectly fine. But the angry, disrespectful TONE with which SOME people express their disdain for the remaining members of DT is skirting the boundaries of self-entitlement. Not saying YOU have ever done that, but some on here have. That's all I was saying, and if you can possibly find more than that in my post (sweeping character assessments of people I've never met included), I invite your analysis.  

Well, maybe I should let this drop.  I was the person that made the big deal about the setlists, though in my defense, as part of a bigger argument, and I thought perhaps you were referring to my tone.  I did not mean it to be disrespectful in any way.

electech98


Yeah, in the end it really is subjective according to what sort of sound and energy and interaction more resonates with you as a fan.

From a certain fan's perspective (like mine), if they've watched the various documentaries and kept up with the musical trends of DT over the past few albums, such a fan could reasonably come to the conclusion that MP continued to exert a certain amount of control in the musical direction of writing and recording, control that was a good amount above what other members in the band (especially JLB) had. From interviews and documentaries, I get the impression that this control of MP's increased over time, possibly contributing to the tensions and the increased disinterest in certain other members of the band (JM?) during the writing process. I would also venture a guess (though this is pure speculation at this point, and is not aimed at ruffling feathers or putting anyone down) that had MP not been in the band or had less control during the writing of SC and BC&SL (or possibly even ToT), we may not have heard such "interesting" tidbits in some of the songs such as the (albeit toned down) growling in the first song of BC&SL, the rapping in ToT, the straight metal (with a very pronounced kick drum sound) of songs like The Dark Eternal Night, etc. Whether or not those things are mainly due to MP's influence, I can't say for certain, but I do remember some interviews or documentaries that seemed to imply that MP's listening habits were often the cause of such tidbits, things that one wouldn't normally expect to hear from a mainly progressive rock band. Personally, for me, those tidbits are more of a turn-off because they seem most unnatural coming from DT (JLB especially).

As such, if an album such as ADToE is the result of the other members in DT being forced (in a way) to take a bigger role in the creative writing process, and if JLB is able to put out a great performance on that record in the way that he did as a result of purposing to not feel pressured and recording the vocals where he feels comfortable (per certain interviews), I am all for that. So, subjectively, I am more of a fan of the direction DT took with ADToE than that of SC and BC&SL. The lyrical direction of SC and BC&SL also contributed to my ranking them lower in the DT catalog for me. ADToE ranks as one of my favorites of DT, in the company of Awake, SFaM, and 6DoIT. Others may disagree, and that is totally fine; I respect that everyone has their own musical tastes. I only tell you all this so you know a little more about what musical / lyrical styles in DT have connected with me more, as opposed to what others have connected with.

Well, I have no more knowledge than you, but I think this is sort of Genesis Part II.  Phil Collins was always "blamed" for the direction of Genesis after Steve Hackett left, and yet Tony Banks is was and always will be the defacto leader of Genesis.  Phil has said on many occassions that "you try and get Tony Banks to play something he doesn't want to play".  And I often feel that way about DT.  I don't think John Petrucci (or Jordan Rudess, for that matter) went kicking and screaming into the world of "rap" and growl vocals.  Didn't James have growl vocals on his solo albums?  Didn't John write most of the lyrics on the last couple albums?  I don't think there are enough data points to draw the kind of conculsions that many people are drawing.  I don't dislike ADToE.  I think it is a very good record.  And I don't think MP is perfect and infallible.  I don't like the growl vocals either.  But I don't want my favorite artists to give me what I want.  I want my favorite artists to give me something that challenges me and shows me something new.  BC&SL did that more than ADToE, in my opinoin. 

Feltronc


I wouldn't think so.

Is Jordan triggering the sampled vocal harmonies, or is it the FOH?

They're using a click for everything; harmonies are set up to play automatically from the same system.

Nippett


The back and forth needs to stay civilized or bans will start.
Keep it on topic which is about the tour itself not about money, who is entitled, or talking trash about members or ex-members.

Everyone is able to speak their opinion but the personal attacks need to stop.

So before this thread gets anymore off track, is it safe to say that you are trying to Nippett in the bud? **ba dum Peesh**
 

FlamTap

Nippett


The back and forth needs to stay civilized or bans will start.
Keep it on topic which is about the tour itself not about money, who is entitled, or talking trash about members or ex-members.

Everyone is able to speak their opinion but the personal attacks need to stop.

So before this thread gets anymore off track, is it safe to say that you are trying to Nippett in the bud? **ba dum Peesh**

That shi(t)p has long sailed...  We're in full bloom...

Bakerman

Feltronc


I wouldn't think so.

Is Jordan triggering the sampled vocal harmonies, or is it the FOH?

They're using a click for everything; harmonies are set up to play automatically from the same system.

Wow, interesting! Thanks!
 
Nice to see you posting man :)

Stadler

electech98


Yeah, in the end it really is subjective according to what sort of sound and energy and interaction more resonates with you as a fan.

From a certain fan's perspective (like mine), if they've watched the various documentaries and kept up with the musical trends of DT over the past few albums, such a fan could reasonably come to the conclusion that MP continued to exert a certain amount of control in the musical direction of writing and recording, control that was a good amount above what other members in the band (especially JLB) had. From interviews and documentaries, I get the impression that this control of MP's increased over time, possibly contributing to the tensions and the increased disinterest in certain other members of the band (JM?) during the writing process. I would also venture a guess (though this is pure speculation at this point, and is not aimed at ruffling feathers or putting anyone down) that had MP not been in the band or had less control during the writing of SC and BC&SL (or possibly even ToT), we may not have heard such "interesting" tidbits in some of the songs such as the (albeit toned down) growling in the first song of BC&SL, the rapping in ToT, the straight metal (with a very pronounced kick drum sound) of songs like The Dark Eternal Night, etc. Whether or not those things are mainly due to MP's influence, I can't say for certain, but I do remember some interviews or documentaries that seemed to imply that MP's listening habits were often the cause of such tidbits, things that one wouldn't normally expect to hear from a mainly progressive rock band. Personally, for me, those tidbits are more of a turn-off because they seem most unnatural coming from DT (JLB especially).

As such, if an album such as ADToE is the result of the other members in DT being forced (in a way) to take a bigger role in the creative writing process, and if JLB is able to put out a great performance on that record in the way that he did as a result of purposing to not feel pressured and recording the vocals where he feels comfortable (per certain interviews), I am all for that. So, subjectively, I am more of a fan of the direction DT took with ADToE than that of SC and BC&SL. The lyrical direction of SC and BC&SL also contributed to my ranking them lower in the DT catalog for me. ADToE ranks as one of my favorites of DT, in the company of Awake, SFaM, and 6DoIT. Others may disagree, and that is totally fine; I respect that everyone has their own musical tastes. I only tell you all this so you know a little more about what musical / lyrical styles in DT have connected with me more, as opposed to what others have connected with.

Well, I have no more knowledge than you, but I think this is sort of Genesis Part II.  Phil Collins was always "blamed" for the direction of Genesis after Steve Hackett left, and yet Tony Banks is was and always will be the defacto leader of Genesis.  Phil has said on many occassions that "you try and get Tony Banks to play something he doesn't want to play".  And I often feel that way about DT.  I don't think John Petrucci (or Jordan Rudess, for that matter) went kicking and screaming into the world of "rap" and growl vocals.  Didn't James have growl vocals on his solo albums?  Didn't John write most of the lyrics on the last couple albums?  I don't think there are enough data points to draw the kind of conculsions that many people are drawing.  I don't dislike ADToE.  I think it is a very good record.  And I don't think MP is perfect and infallible.  I don't like the growl vocals either.  But I don't want my favorite artists to give me what I want.  I want my favorite artists to give me something that challenges me and shows me something new.  BC&SL did that more than ADToE, in my opinoin. 

Yeah, the only people to really say on all those points would be the DT guys themselves...I'm only speculating based on what I remember (with my fallible memory) from interviews, documentaries, and invariably other people's posts on this forum and others. I don't remember if JLB attempted growly vocals on any of his solo albums...I only have Mullmuzzler 2 and Elements of Persuasion, and just can't place growly vocals on those two albums. It looks like JP wrote most of the lyrics for SC and BC&SL (with a good amount of help from MP), and wrote almost the entire album for ADToE, and I would opine that his lyrical-writing quality was vastly improved in ADToE. Maybe it was the different approach to writing the album as opposed to what they did for the previous two? Maybe, not so rushed in creating and producing the album? Again, another speculation. 
 
As my comments are off-track for this thread (it started on track, I promise! :) ), I would like to end with saying that I think it is sad to hear of venues that are sounding pretty empty. I know MP was a big draw for a lot of fans. But, I hope DT moves ever forward with a more clear, harmonious direction and togetherness than before. I'm hoping time will tell, with some patience, that DT's direction post-MP is a chance for a lot of new people to become fans. But that won't happen overnight unfortunately.

They're using a click for everything; harmonies are set up to play automatically from the same system.

 
Is this a fact?  Any details on what exactly is being sampled? 

Setlist Scotty

kaos2900

Pretty much this. James crowd interaction is far and away much better than it used to be. Also, Myung got up on the drum riser several times as well which I have never seen. And it is true in my opinon.

Uh James *may* be slightly more active than before, but nothing majorly significant as is implied by some fans. And I say that as someone who's seen the band numerous times since 93.

Regarding JM, have a look at the BCaSL tourbook. You'll find a Chaos in Motion-era photo of JM not only on the drum riser, but actually behind the drums playing bass next to MP. And I don't believe that was a one-time occurrence either.

As always, you can ALWAYS count on setlist scotty for the accurate and 100% truth when it comes to DT! This whole thing about the band (and especially James & JM) being so much more alive is simply ridiculous. I haven't seen DT as far back as SS (my first time was '96), but I see absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in their live performance (with of course the exception of missing the hell out of MP on stage)! They were great and still are, but certainly not any more energetic.
And I have to add about JLB. Look, I love the guy being "our" lead singer and I think he does a fantastic job singing both on cd and live, but he is IMO, one of the "worst" frontmen in the business. There's just NO real enthusiasm on stage from him and he always looks pissed off being there Add that to the always leaving the stage when he's not singing, and he just adds nothing as a live "performer".
Just sayin'.........

WilsonCat

Is this a fact?  Any details on what exactly is being sampled? 

Yes, I've seen the system & met the guy who runs it. Vocals are easiest to notice on live videos I suppose--if there's a 2nd part or harmony and JP's not at the mic it's sampled. (I think there are also spots where JP sings in unison with a sampled JLB part, like War Inside My Head.) Then there are some misc. guitar and keyboard parts like acoustic gtr. & keys at the start of OTBOA, keys at the end of it (16th note thing continues sampled when he beings the final orchestral sound), guitar (Nashville tuning) in Beneath the Surface, gtr. harmonies in Lost Not Forgotten, This Is the Life, Outcry, keys during LNF unison (chords, really low in the mix on album). That's probably not a complete list, just what I remember noticing live.

pullmyfinger

Setlist Scotty

kaos2900

Pretty much this. James crowd interaction is far and away much better than it used to be. Also, Myung got up on the drum riser several times as well which I have never seen. And it is true in my opinon.

Uh James *may* be slightly more active than before, but nothing majorly significant as is implied by some fans. And I say that as someone who's seen the band numerous times since 93.

Regarding JM, have a look at the BCaSL tourbook. You'll find a Chaos in Motion-era photo of JM not only on the drum riser, but actually behind the drums playing bass next to MP. And I don't believe that was a one-time occurrence either.

As always, you can ALWAYS count on setlist scotty for the accurate and 100% truth when it comes to DT! This whole thing about the band (and especially James & JM) being so much more alive is simply ridiculous. I haven't seen DT as far back as SS (my first time was '96), but I see absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in their live performance (with of course the exception of missing the hell out of MP on stage)! They were great and still are, but certainly not any more energetic.
And I have to add about JLB. Look, I love the guy being "our" lead singer and I think he does a fantastic job singing both on cd and live, but he is IMO, one of the "worst" frontmen in the business. There's just NO real enthusiasm on stage from him and he always looks pissed off being there Add that to the always leaving the stage when he's not singing, and he just adds nothing as a live "performer".
Just sayin'.........

Pretty much agree with all of this.  I have NEVER seen DT as UNactive as they were at the PNC show so this nonsense that they are more energetic than ever is crap.  As far as James, I don't have a problem with him leaving the stage during insrumental sections, I actually prefer it as those sections are about the other 4 guys so there's no reason for him to be on stage.  That said, it amazes me how awkward he still is on stage when he's been doing this for as long as he has.  His interaction with the crowd in between songs is actually painful to watch at times.  Last tour when I saw them twice within a week he did the SAME EXACT thing during the SAME EXACT section of Build Me Up, Break Me Down where he took the mic stand and did these spins.  It looked cheesy the first time, but when I saw him do it the same exact time and way in the 2nd show and realized that it was basically choregraphed that made it even worse.  I love James as a singer and I would not want to see DT with any other singer up there, but he really is a horrible front man.

He's not horrible. Wow. What are your standards for a frontman?