The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember"

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (GhostofCain)

Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:17:21 GMT

Holy thread resurrection!

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (The Fish)

Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:57:20 GMT

Oh, gawd/

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (Lurtz)

Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:53:58 GMT

oh damn the clean version of the song (with only labrie singing) is not available anymore...

does anyone have it by any chance?

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (SeventhSon)

Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:51:10 GMT

Mike,

Your original post hints that, as producers, JP and yourself are concerned with what DT fans can swallow. I suggest taking a different approach and just make your music to your tastes and forget what the fans think about it. You've earned that right!! We'll love it (or hate it), but either way we'll be listening to your music and supporting the band.

As for the Great Cookie Monster Debate, I have noticed that I personally am not emotionally moved or affected by screamed lyrics. To me, they lack rhythm, melody, harmony, articulation, and don't really express anything musically. If there is any band on the planet that could insert musicality into this vocal style it would be DT. So I'm throwing down the gauntlet. On your next record, if you feel the urge to scream, just do it and make a believer out of me and the rest of the cookie haters.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (gelj)

Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:21:40 GMT

I have to say that I think Mikes vocals are fantastic and I love the heavy side of it.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (Barge)

Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:23:37 GMT

Nice to read this just now for the first time and learn a bit about how the guys worked on different parts for that section of the song. Having seen ANTR three times live I think Mike's performance on that part of the song is just incredible. It was definitely one of the highlights of the show each time I saw it. I can't fathom how he can drum that section and sing those lyrics in that fashion, especially the second part, it's not like the lyrics are easy.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (something_wicked)

Sun, 27 Dec 2009 15:48:13 GMT

to me it sets the song apart from the others on the album especially considering the blastobeatrix at the end.
Its all mint metal at the end of the day though

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (fields10)

Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:27:50 GMT

Agreed!!!!! This part is really great!

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (BrokenIcarus)

Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:21:34 GMT

Sorry for the bump but i would just really like to say that the way it is on the album sounds awesome to me and the growling isn't as cool imho.
I actually really like the Dual Vocal thing even though it sounds kind of out of hand.
But i really respect MP's decision and i don't see how people can say that the part is really bad or trying to sound cool.
It's one of my favourite parts of the song along with the mellow "Hoplessly drifting..." part.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (splent)

Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:20:20 GMT

Mike,

No disrespect, but thank you for not doing the cookie monster vocals. One of the reasons that I like DT is that your vocals are SINGABLE! I can't sing along with growls. As a vocalist, I love how DT is so melodic in their music, I can sing along with JP's guitar, and everything! I would have been extremely turned off of that song if you guys had added those growls. If you have by chance read my posts on DTF (where we try to keep all criticism constructive and non-bashing) I'm not a fan of growl/screamo vox AT ALL, that's just my style and taste. I like to be able to sing with the music.

Anyways, the song how it turned out is awesome, and while it's not my favorite of the album (that's The Best of Times, that song is beautiful), it's rockin!

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (YoungDrummer92)

Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:43:51 GMT

Well, I'll admit that you're vocal part kinda cought me off guard just cause it's not typical DT, but really when I thought about it, DT isn't a band that does the same thing over and over again. So I think it's cool that you tried a new approach. And I'm glad you decided to go with the final recording cause the first one just kinda sounded funny, heh, no offence. The second, the 2 vocal parts just didn't mix well. But the third was strong, but not overboard. So I love the new album and I'm sure I'll be pleased with anything in the future.

Anthony

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (DTChemist)

Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:49:14 GMT

Yeah I didn't mean I was laughing *at* MP, I was laughing at the roar...I know he likes to joke around, I do, too, which is why it's so funny

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (mkbcoolman)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:22:48 GMT

A51502112

DTChemist

I guess the only thing I can say is the "RAAAARRRRHHH" at the end always makes me fucking crack up out loud, I mean it makes me LAUGH. The lines before are fine but the roar is just silly...

Same here. It sounds like he's joking around.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (A51502112)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:53:16 GMT

DTChemist

I guess the only thing I can say is the "RAAAARRRRHHH" at the end always makes me fucking crack up out loud, I mean it makes me LAUGH. The lines before are fine but the roar is just silly...

Same here. It sounds like he's joking around.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (John62)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:04:35 GMT

Hi Mike! I hope you read this! I am from Argentina, sorry but do not write well in English! I consider myself a big fan of DT, I love your work! everything you do, and the truth that when I hear your vocals in ANTR woooowww increasingly Mike! but at the time gave me a lot of anger keer criticism in several places that make you! the truth , as the few bands and members who care about us, I felt very bad as you were, so I didn´t add the forum before because I did not write well, but I felt like I needed to return what you do and all the band doing with your music, to appreciate that if we do all the work!
I'm sincere, I have no cd favorite, I love them all! each one touch me in different ways like his lyrics, including Falling into infinity which is very critical! in spanish! perdon si no es entendible el texto hice the best i can!! mis saludos to the guys!! i love your side projects to!!! haha Please John Myung to write a song again and make a headbanger! still the best
mikegarcia62@hotmail.com

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (kevincaton)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:43:03 GMT

Thanks MP for all that you do for DT (and LTE!) fans, we love you. Great idea releasing the instrumental mixes for the new album, the songs sound amazing. I hope you will continue that practice for future DT albums.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (DTChemist)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:11:47 GMT

I guess the only thing I can say is the "RAAAARRRRHHH" at the end always makes me fucking crack up out loud, I mean it makes me LAUGH. The lines before are fine but the roar is just silly...

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (xenowang)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 07:39:31 GMT

Well, Opeth and in the broader sense, "cookie monster" vocals have been very polarizing subjects on the forum here for years now.

Though I take issue with people calling the tracked vocals "cookie monster" as they aren't really... except for the ending "roar". Overall I enjoy the section's feel but the lyrics just don't match up.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (ne0ven0m)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 01:41:14 GMT

Just joined the forum, and as my first comment, I want to say that I totally don't see what the debate is all about. It never entered my mind during multiple listens of the song that Mike's vocals were annoying/bad in some way. It seemed fitting to the song and that was that.

Thanks for what you do, Iron Mike!

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (TimMoff)

Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:54:54 GMT

Am I the only one who hears the cookie VERY quietly in the background of the current version? (Listen to the isolated vocal stem).

Someone probably pointed it out a few pages ago....

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (NobodyImportant)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:02:43 GMT

nechtology

Right. You're one of the greatest drummers of all time, in one of the greatest bands of all time. You're in the modern drummer hall of fame. You're about to do your zillionth world tour, in front of a packed house every night, sitting behind another brand new drum kit and set of cymbals that everybody on this forum would kill for, but you get for free, with an album in the US top ten. Oh and this album also happens to be the best album you've made in 10 years. You've just played Donington and you're playing Wembley Arena this year, with Opeth supporting. And you're now friends with Brian May. I wouldnt worry about "prog types" moaning about a 30 second long segment in one song if i were you (which I happen to LOVE by the way!!!!).

Exactly!

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (nechtology)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:24:23 GMT

Right. You're one of the greatest drummers of all time, in one of the greatest bands of all time. You're in the modern drummer hall of fame. You're about to do your zillionth world tour, in front of a packed house every night, sitting behind another brand new drum kit and set of cymbals that everybody on this forum would kill for, but you get for free, with an album in the US top ten. Oh and this album also happens to be the best album you've made in 10 years. You've just played Donington and you're playing Wembley Arena this year, with Opeth supporting. And you're now friends with Brian May. I wouldnt worry about "prog types" moaning about a 30 second long segment in one song if i were you (which I happen to LOVE by the way!!!!).

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (Panic Attack)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:21:35 GMT

I don't understand why people mock it, but don't mock the end to the demo of Burning My Soul. I'm sure JLB coughed up a lung on that.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (ScenesFromGeetarmeister)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:08:50 GMT

I just think it's awesome, Mike please sing it live!

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (dtopeth2)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:08:11 GMT

Honeslty, I agree with Jlb's counterpoint vocals, kinda confuses me. When i first heard this I was surprised to see you growling AND "rapping" like that. In the end its the perfect balance, just took me a while to get used to. I used to think it was cheesy, but now, I wait for that part like waiting for Friday Night, I growl right with you hahaha.

and a good idea just for the European Leg with mikael...Have him growl with you specifically on that part...It'll make the crowd go nuts. If you did that in the US (i know its not gonna happen) that would be sick. The guys in the pit would make a mosh.

well good luck on the rest of the tour, see at the greek theater in august.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (mkbcoolman)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:00:30 GMT

Ok, I really didn't like this part of the song, then I heard the cookie monster version. For my part, I hate growling, so the current version is definately an improvement.

I like Mike's voice, I just don't like this section. While I love the song (and the entire Album, for that matter), this is a spot where I'm just scatching my head saying 'huh'? Cookie monster, clean, whatever...I don't think that's the issue for me. I do think Mike did a good job capturing the emotion and tone of the vocals capturing the tone of the music...definateley better than clean. The problem is the lyric at this section of the song just does not fit the music, so it's irrelevant how it was sung.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (3sp)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:29:39 GMT

DTChemist

Mike, I think it's fine as is so don't feel the need to defend yourself...it's YOUR music, man, and we all dig it!

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 squared

And as a matter of fact, I would love to hear The Best of times with your vocals Mike

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (DTChemist)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:45:41 GMT

Mike, I think it's fine as is so don't feel the need to defend yourself...it's YOUR music, man, and we all dig it!

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (locriation)

Mon, 06 Jul 2009 04:47:09 GMT

Wow.

This is just fucking unbelievable that the man has to defend himself over this. And in his own house, to boot. Incredible.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (IamMe90)

Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:45:35 GMT

That's not completely true... singing is largely a matter of natural talent, especially when it comes to pitch perfect people and tone deaf people.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (DefyingMortality)

Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:37:44 GMT

NobodyImportant

Hey, Mike, I think your vocals sound fine on A Nightmare To Remember. The final version is a good compromise and fits the music very well.

Portnoy
the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )

This is the one thing I disagree with. Believe me, I have tried singing for years, and I simply can't. Period. Oh, I can get the "personality and emotion," but I usually can't find the right notes, and hitting the right notes does kinda have some importance when singing.

In that case, it's just a matter of training and practice to harness your voice.

I was thinking about something similar today, actually - anybody can write an awesome song in their head, it's just in how they're able to express it in a tangible form that the "talent" seeps in.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (Jbraga90)

Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:23:22 GMT

That passage of the son ANTR it's the one that makes you put an angry face and shake your head off! And also, Mike's voice was the perfect to fit in the album song...really espectacular!ç
Keep rockin' Mike!

Jorge Braga
CARPE DIEM

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (NobodyImportant)

Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:57:56 GMT

Hey, Mike, I think your vocals sound fine on A Nightmare To Remember. The final version is a good compromise and fits the music very well.

Portnoy
the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )

This is the one thing I disagree with. Believe me, I have tried singing for years, and I simply can't. Period. Oh, I can get the "personality and emotion," but I usually can't find the right notes, and hitting the right notes does kinda have some importance when singing.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (colty42)

Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:53:08 GMT

I don't mind the vocals on the album, and I thought the cookie monster growls sounded kinda cool too.

But I don't think that James' singing took away from the heaviness of the section. The mix of heavy music and James' softer vocals has always been a very interesting dichotomy to me and part of the reason I like the band. It sets them apart from what is the norm, and I don't think there is any better example of DT's heavy side mingling with James' vocals than on The Glass Prison.

To me that is the shining example of DT's ability to mix heavy with prog, and the vocal melodies on that song are some of my all time DT favorites. They don't detract or add to the heaviness, but rather strengthen the song in general. And even with James' high vocals, the song still ends up being one of DT's heaviest and most brutal songs.

ANTR is fine the way it is, and I think its pointless to squabble over MPs vocals. He shouldn't have had to come out and explain himself because, personally, the vocals are not out of left field at all.

Having said all that, I do find myself wishing they utilized James' abilities a little more. I don't think focusing more on using his clean vocal style would detract in any way from what DT is doing, and in fact I think it would strengthen it.

But I am not in the band so in having no say as to what happens with the songs, I will appreciate the songs as they come.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (FearsEnd)

Sat, 04 Jul 2009 02:57:22 GMT

Very true Mike! I think people tend to be so
picky and close minded...which is easy for a fan to do.
I know I still catch myself doing so from time to time but
being a musician myself I realize what it is like to have people
criticize and put you in a box. It is good to please the fans but
ultimately at the end of the day you are the guys writing this
and this is your Dream and Passion...so do what you love and
what comes natural to you.
All respect to you and the Dream Theater crew cause you
guys not only stay true to your sound but you try to be
innovative on every album and that is what I love about you guys!
Keep writing amazing albums!
P.S. BC&SL is an outstanding album and by the way you sing good so no worries there.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (Cruithne)

Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:51:30 GMT

Strato

I may be 11 pages too late at this point, but I think MP was spot on with his call. The current version struck me a little odd, and hearing the 'Cookie Monster' version made it fit into place a lot better. Oh well!

Without hearing the original treatment from JP, I wouldn't like to say MP was spot on with his call. I'd also liked to have heard a guest vocalist synonymous with that style of music doing that section.

Personally I think I'd rather the published version had the death vocals than what they finally went with and I'm a little frustrated that a controversial section of an otherwise fantastic song seems to be a result of a compromise rather than a strong artistic vision.

I think part of my problem lies in the fact that DT have a world class vocalist (in the studio, at least) singing for them, and his voice is synonymous with the band's music as far as I'm concerned, so when someone else is taking the lead then they've got a lot to live up to.

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (Merquise)

Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:40:52 GMT

First, the usual: Topics such as this are part of the reason I appreciate DT to the extent I do; there's a workable interaction between the fans and the band that really does say something about the humanity of the people playing. Mike's clearly a good person and I'm sorry that people crossed the line of criticism into personal attack. It would upset me too (similar things in my past, though not on this scale, have).

As far as the section in question goes, I agree that the problem is the placement of the vox, not the execution (though as an Opeth fan I did love the growls and would gladly buy a version with them). However, if we remove the vox for a second and just look at the lyrics, there's a bit more subtlety in play there:

It's a miracle he lived
It's a blessing no one died
By the grace of god above
Everyone survived

Now, if you assume the person saying the lines is an arbitrary speaker, the lines do grate a little bit. However, we have to remember that the person saying this is the child (Or adult, either way, JP in this case) and that narrators should never be relied on to give the full story, especially first-person ones (Think Nick Carroway from The Great Gatsby). Note the earlier lines:

I asked about the others
Is everyone ok?
He told me not to worry
As he turned and looked away

In the growled lines, note the child specifically says that everyone "survived" and that "no one died". He never says that everyone involved in the crash was just peachy and fine. Anything except someone dying as a result of the crash could have happened -- someone could have gotten their spine broken and ended up paralyzed, or someone could be missing a limb or limbs, or there could have been immense mental trauma or permenant burns, etc.

Personally, I think James should have sung those four lines very softly, perhaps over some tritoned, Gothic sounding (Opethian acoustic?) chording -- it would have allowed the subtlety to be more noticeable and would have emphasized the ambiguity and the deliberate holes in the provided information.

But hell, what do I know? It's DT's song and that's just my opinion. However they want to do it -- it's their show, right? (Though I do think that James should have a litle more input on his vocal melodies, but it's not my place to say that).

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (PMA)

Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:12:09 GMT

I've read through a lot of this thread but not all. Here's my $.02:

1) Portnoy's a class act to interact with the fans like he does. His willingness to get into his motivation is commendable.

2) When a band has a great vocalist like LaBrie, I don't understand the need to add death metal growling elements, no matter how much the music is supposed to be "dark and aggressive". Would rather see some changes in LaBries delivery if needed to go with what the music is calling for. A band that knows how to do this well is Symphony X. Russell Allen can change his approach from smooth and melodic to harsh and aggressive. It's almost as if his voice has patches like a keyboard. Again, with LaBrie, why doesn't he have more say on what the singing should be? He's the vocalist after all.

3) There are too many bands IMHO with great vocalists that do this for some reason and I believe it detracts from the music. Pagan's Mind and After Forever are two examples. I love them both but can do without any growling. I just don't think it's musical.

4) It's ultimately DT's decision but I have to agree with JP that if they had gone with the first approach that was considered, it would have likely been less accepted. So, if that's the case and causes a concern even within the band, why risk any backlash? I'm not suggesting playing it safe since this is DT after all but you'd think they would want full agreement within the band on what they are offering to the fans.

5) My final view is that this is one of the best DT CD's they've ever done. Composition is improved over the last couple of CD's and the production is just stellar. I can live with the growls but hope they don't do this much in the future.

Cheers,
Paul

Re:The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember" (mickey)

Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:05:19 GMT

Portnoy

I knew my vocals in A Nighmare To Remember would surely spark some controversy...looks like I was right!

As The Count Of Tuscany once said:
"wait a minute man....that's not how it is...let me please explain!"

1. The original melody that JP had to this section I felt did not work with the music. This section of the song has a really heavy, driving Judas Priest/King Diamond vibe musically...and JP had a melody that was more melodic and James' high voice I felt REALLY softened up the music to this very important dramatic section of the song.

(mp3 not available for this example)

2. I really kept hearing a Mikael Akerfeldt type Opeth death growl (yes, cookie monster vocals - sorry Setlist Scotty!) Like em or hate em, the section was really calling for it to my ears (listen to the instrumental version and you'll hear what I mean...)
The thought crossed my mind to ask Mikael himself to do it, but then I figured I'd end up having to do it live every night on tour, so it might as well be me on the CD....

So I gave it my best shot and here's what it was:

http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3

In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow...

3. So I agreed to try adding James doing a bit of a "counterpoint" to my cookie monster version to possible help soften the blow and add a little melody to the part....so here's what it sounded like:

http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR MP & JLB.mp3

I did not dig this approach as
a) James' clean vocals were still softening up the music to me
b) the counterpoint approach made it all too confusing and distracted from the drive of the music

4. So John and I went back to the idea of keeping my vocals for the section to keep it heavy and driving, but getting rid of the Opeth cookie monster approach and going for a more Robb Flynn/Machine Head approach instead (kind of like my "Constant Motion" voice)

In the end, that is what we went with:

http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20Final.mp3

I did indeed know that no matter what, we wouldn't please everybody with the idea, but I really felt a "heavy" approach was needed to keep the heaviness of the section (and hey...look at Roger Waters, Wayne Coyne, Neil Young, Dave Mustaine, Jeff Tweety, James Hetfield, etc etc. the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )

I know my voice my not be everybody's cup of tea (especially the heavy side), but sometimes
a contrast to James' cleaner vocals are needed with some of the heavy riffs and I believe "character" or "personality" in a voice is just as important in music and the expression of your art, it's not always about virtuoso, operatic range...

Ultimately, if you really are bothered by em then I suppose you can at least thank me for making the instrumental mixes and isolated stems available!

MP

PS - On a side note as this thread is really aimed to clear up my side of the street amongst the bashers: I must say the amount of hatred and negativity towards me on other DT "fan" sites is truly incredible (you know who you are)...my skin is not as thick as you may think!

It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...

Please feel free to post this on those sites as well...

Hi Mike
I thought the Opeth growling version is way better man,
except I dun really like how you end the growls, anyway just my opinion,
we fans are thankful of what you did for DT but artistic views are always subjective.
So just put on what you think is the best!
IMHO

mickey