Black Sabbath Press Conference Tomorrow (11/11/11)

gazinwales


A 4 way equal split?
Not the way I see it.
Iommi is the main songwriter should get the most, Geezer with the lyrics and riff contributions, not far behind.
Way behind Ozzy, who contributes not a lot, nothing more than vocal melody lines.
Bill plays the drums.

 
Ozzy contributes a fan base that is exponentially larger than Black Sabbath's.

And here we have it. I agree that Bill doesn't owe anyone anything and that if his terms aren't honoured, then he doesn't have to do it. He obviously feels that he doesn't have to be part of it if his terms aren't honoured. They obviously aren't interested in budging their position. I am obviously not gonna bother with this band. Cause Bill to me is not easily replaced style-wise, but most importantly the genuine reunion value-wise. Now it's just another one of those BS incarnations with "other people" a.k.a. NOT the original. And granted I have seen the original lineup and can barely stomach Ozzy's "singing" nowadays, I now have zero interest in seeing/hearing it.

In this instance it shouldn't be about drawing power or name recognition, it should
be about going out the way you came in. Equally. But in all things business, including
music, this rarely happens.
 
 
Also if this doesn't happen I guess I still have the live Reunion album, which aside from
Ozzy's annoying "I can't HEAR you. LOUDER! LOUDER!!"...is a very enjoyable album and
Ward still proves he has it.

SeventhSon


I'm not buying Bill's statements here.  Respect and such are intangibles and not contractable.  Despite his "it's not about money" bullshit, it's always about money.  His contributions to Black Sabbath were significant artistically, but the brand popularity and catalog sales are largely due to Tony, Geezer, and especially Ozzy's continued work.  Bill, though a great drummer, isn't worth 25% of the Black Sabbath name in terms of business.  More like 2.5% if that even.  Now if Bill Ward was a festival draw by himself like Ozzy is, then he'd have some negotiating leverage, but he's not - not even close.  It's too bad people are so damn greedy.  Bill should get on the f-ing plane for *nothing* other than to be with his bandmates in what are probably going to be their final working years.  Sorry, you don't get respect from a contract, you get it from doing your job despite the challenges.  If a pro manager, like Sharon, determines you are only worth scale, then most likely, you are only worth scale.  If the fans will pay the same ticket price to see Vinnie on the throne, then management is actually making the right business call.  Wolfgang hasn't stopped Van Halen from selling out everywhere.  Likewise, Bill's absence won't make a significant difference to the financial bottom line of future Black Sabbath recordings and tours.  too bad though.  I'd like to see the four originals back together.  I think it is the most poignant way for them to wind down their careers and go out in style.   

 
Yeah, sadly fans say these things, but then show up anyway.  A ticket to a BS show sans Bill is a vote against Bill.  Van Halen has shown that you only need the stars for a successful reunion tour.  Hope I'm wrong, I'd love to see fans stay at home and send a message to bands out there about touring without classic/original era members, but I just can't see it happening.

TheOnlyNameLeft

SeventhSon


I'm not buying Bill's statements here.  Respect and such are intangibles and not contractable.  Despite his "it's not about money" bullshit, it's always about money.  His contributions to Black Sabbath were significant artistically, but the brand popularity and catalog sales are largely due to Tony, Geezer, and especially Ozzy's continued work.  Bill, though a great drummer, isn't worth 25% of the Black Sabbath name in terms of business.  More like 2.5% if that even.  Now if Bill Ward was a festival draw by himself like Ozzy is, then he'd have some negotiating leverage, but he's not - not even close.  It's too bad people are so damn greedy.  Bill should get on the f-ing plane for *nothing* other than to be with his bandmates in what are probably going to be their final working years.  Sorry, you don't get respect from a contract, you get it from doing your job despite the challenges.  If a pro manager, like Sharon, determines you are only worth scale, then most likely, you are only worth scale.  If the fans will pay the same ticket price to see Vinnie on the throne, then management is actually making the right business call.  Wolfgang hasn't stopped Van Halen from selling out everywhere.  Likewise, Bill's absence won't make a significant difference to the financial bottom line of future Black Sabbath recordings and tours.  too bad though.  I'd like to see the four originals back together.  I think it is the most poignant way for them to wind down their careers and go out in style.   

Yeah, sadly fans say these things, but then show up anyway.  A ticket to a BS show sans Bill is a vote against Bill.  Van Halen has shown that you only need the stars for a successful reunion tour.  Hope I'm wrong, I'd love to see fans stay at home and send a message to bands out there about touring without classic/original era members, but I just can't see it happening.

I have deep respect for Tony carrying on and keeping Sabbath going - no matter who's playing with him.  

My response to Bill dropping out
 
Fuck

Very disappointing.

Lets be honest here,they ain`t doing it for the fans or any artistic desire,they are doing it for one last large payout before retirement,so if they had any decency they`d cut Bill in for 25%,after all, even in the 70`s when they were managed by $haron`s dad who had as bad a rep as her,they were credited on the songs as Butler,Iommi,Osbourne,Ward.The whole point of an original line-up reunion is to actually have THE original line-up,in which case Bill IS worth an equal split.Let`s not forget $haron`s crappy treatment of Daisley and Kerslake,going so far as to have Bordin and Trujillo re-record their tracks note for note on the re-release of the first two Ozzy albums to deny them performance royalties.I don`t know how Bordin and Trujillo slept at night after being party to that.

BILL 18

I don`t know how Bordin and Trujillo slept at night after being party to that. 

I concur.  To actively take part in fucking up classic recordings for money is *low*.  Oh, and the rerecorded versions *sucked* and nobody wanted to buy them.  
 
I don't think the "original" line-up of Black Sabbath is as important to them as it is to us.  Reading Iommi's book he makes it clear that each line up has its strengths and its weaknesses.  Even the "Reunion" era tours saw Vinnie playing some shows, and even touring as a back up in case Bill needed a break.  Maybe they wrote the contract in a way that covers the additional cost of having Bill on the tour.  I agree that in a perfect world a four member band would split things into four equal shares, but we just don't live in a perfect world. 

I just think it's a bit hypocritical on everyone's part because for so long they (with the exception of Iommi, and Geezer depending on his mood) emphasized on how those "FOUR" were Black Sabbath and that with out all four of them it's not Black Sabbath and that there couldn't be another album called Black Sabbath unless the four were involved. For fuck's sake they should have named their reunion with Dio a few years ago Black Sabbath instead of having named it Heaven And Hell if they are going to choose to be Black Sabbath without Bill Ward. Fucking hypocrites man...

I don't know if Bordin or Trujillo ever spoke publicly on the subject, but I don't hold them responsible one bit.  They were in Ozzy's band at the time, presumably under contract and were told to do it.  Even if either of them told Sharon to stick the paycheck up her ass and left, those re-releases would've come out with someone doing the new parts.
 
Speak of the Devil was in the works prior to Randy's death.  He was uncomfortable going back and doing a "Sabbath Live" album and was not for it.  I wonder how that would've played out...

 Heaven And Hell were called Black Sabbath,until Ozzy took legal action over their use of the name in the mid 00`s,something along the lines of it ain`t Black Sabbath without Ozzy conveniently forgetting all the years with Dio,Gillan,Tony Martin,Glen Hughes as the singer,i wonder who put him up to that?

BILL 18


Heaven And Hell were called Black Sabbath,until Ozzy took legal action over their use of the name in the mid 00`s,something along the lines of it ain`t Black Sabbath without Ozzy conveniently forgetting all the years with Dio,Gillan,Tony Martin,Glen Hughes as the singer,i wonder who put him up to that?

Source for this?

Widely reported in the rock press at the time,try Classic Rock magazine archive,Ozzy recently apologised for doing it,didn`t know why he did it!

Try Googling `Ozzy sues Tony Iommi`

Stadler


How does anyone know what Bill is asking for? Without that, it is impossible to either speculate who is at fault for the impasse or what the impasse is.

Remember, Ozzy brought a suit regarding something to do with the name (I don't recall or never knew the details).  How do you know Bill isn't asking for 25% of the NAME and everything to do with it?  That is a VERY VERY different proposition than "25% of the tour/album income". 

Wasn't Ozzy's lawsuit against Tony something to do with "all 4 members owning the name equally"?  This whole screwing-of-Bill must have been in the works a long time.

So, I admitted I didn't know what the Ozzy-Iommi case was about, just that it was filed.  After listening to all this Ozzy/Sharon bashing, and all the pontificating about what each member of Black Sabbath should do, and how they should spend their money, and what they should feel like, I decided to actually dig up the case.
 
While it true that on is face it is "Ozzy suing for the trademark", but as is typical, there is a lot more to this.  Iommi - according to the court documents - was double-dealing Ozzy all along, and in fact entered into marketing and merchandise agreements with Ozzy as "50-50 owners" of Black Sabbath.  Even though Ozzy was being paid as if he was an owner, and was acting as if he was an owner (furthering the brand) Iommi went and filed a trademark application with the US Patent and Trademark Office, and potentially perjured himself (lied) in the application.  When it came time to re-negotiate the marketing and merchandise agreement, Iommi sent a "cease and desist" letter (i.e. stop doing business) claiming he was sole owner (by virtue of his newly filed trademark).  This stopped ALL royalties from the agreement.  At this time, Ozzy and Iommi were actually negotiating an agreement to memorialize the 50-50 split they were already acting under.  So Ozzy wasn't looking to take something he didn't have, he was looking to memorialize what he already had.
 
Interestingly, I've seen conflicting reports on the outcome:  one source said that Iommi agreed to reliquish 100% ownership claim but only to the four members equally, and another source (the law firm that represented Ozzy, actually) claimed that Iommi reliquished 50% to Ozzy only.
 
As usual, it is foolhardy to guess without knowing the actual facts of the situation.

BILL 18


Try Googling `Ozzy sues Tony Iommi`

Yeah, but that was years after the band started calling themselves "Heaven and Hell."  Iommi said they used that name to differentiate the project from the Ozzy-led Sabbath that had just toured and because they would only be playing Dio-era songs.  Ozzy sued Iommi a few years later for reasons not pertaining to the Dio line-up's use or non-use of the Black Sabbath name.

I personally think Iommi saw the lawsuit coming. They went with Heaven and Hell to cover their asses and prevent Ozzy from cashing in on their music, which probably would've happened had they went with Black Sabbath. Along with a possible cease and desist order preventing them from further using the name knowing the Osbournes.
 

SeventhSon

gazinwales


A 4 way equal split?
Not the way I see it.
Iommi is the main songwriter should get the most, Geezer with the lyrics and riff contributions, not far behind.
Way behind Ozzy, who contributes not a lot, nothing more than vocal melody lines.
Bill plays the drums.

Ozzy contributes a fan base that is exponentially larger than Black Sabbath's.
 

 
That doesn't make him the most important person in Sabbath just because the masses are sucker for an overrated pop culture icon.

Progmetalman


I personally think Iommi saw the lawsuit coming. They went with Heaven and Hell to cover their asses and prevent Ozzy from cashing in on their music, which probably would've happened had they went with Black Sabbath. Along with a possible cease and desist order preventing them from further using the name knowing the Osbournes.

That, respectfully, makes no sense UNLESS Iommi also was guilty of exactly what Ozzy was accusing him of, and that's unfairly taking what wasn't his.  If he was really above board, and felt he was Black Sabbath and was entitled to the name, he would not have worried about "Heaven and Hell"; in fact, it would have strengthened his case in one sense.
 
If you read the complaint, his (Ozzy's) whole case is predicated on the fact that he was an active part of the band, and was promoting and marketing the band while Iommi wasn't (bolstered in part by the fact that he was occupied with Heaven and Hell).  Creating "Heaven and Hell" was a marketing thing for the fans (and probably a bone thrown to Dio, but I have no way of proving that) but it was NOT a good move legally with regard to the Ozzy lawsuit.

Stadler

Progmetalman


I personally think Iommi saw the lawsuit coming. They went with Heaven and Hell to cover their asses and prevent Ozzy from cashing in on their music, which probably would've happened had they went with Black Sabbath. Along with a possible cease and desist order preventing them from further using the name knowing the Osbournes.

That, respectfully, makes no sense UNLESS Iommi also was guilty of exactly what Ozzy was accusing him of, and that's unfairly taking what wasn't his.  If he was really above board, and felt he was Black Sabbath and was entitled to the name, he would not have worried about "Heaven and Hell"; in fact, it would have strengthened his case in one sense.

If you read the complaint, his (Ozzy's) whole case is predicated on the fact that he was an active part of the band, and was promoting and marketing the band while Iommi wasn't (bolstered in part by the fact that he was occupied with Heaven and Hell).  Creating "Heaven and Hell" was a marketing thing for the fans (and probably a bone thrown to Dio, but I have no way of proving that) but it was NOT a good move legally with regard to the Ozzy lawsuit.

How does any thing to do with the Black Sabbath line up featuring Ronnie James Dio, Tony Iommi "unfairly taking what wasn't his"? Ozzy had nothing to do with that music. So even though the name may say Black Sabbath, as far as I'm concerned he has no right or claim to it. It's a time period of the band he wasn't involved in. As much as that may ruffle his feathers, that's his problem and his problem only. Also I think Iommi knows it would've been a waste of his time to attempt to "strengthen his case" and take on the Osbournes for use of the Sabbath name instead of Heaven and Hell. The Osbournes have a lot more money than Tony Iommi does to pour into lawyers and legal battles, so not fighting them was only cutting his losses probably. He didn't have the luxury of having his own reality show called the "Iommi's" to be a cash cow for him. And I won't say that trying to keep Ozzy from getting his hands on Heaven And Hell's money was the only reason for choosing the name Heaven And Hell I guess. But I believe fully it played a role. I have heard Dio say he wasn't too keen on doing the Ozzy numbers during all his stints in Sabbath so I'm sure going with Heaven and Hell made him much happier.

Progmetalman

Stadler

Progmetalman


I personally think Iommi saw the lawsuit coming. They went with Heaven and Hell to cover their asses and prevent Ozzy from cashing in on their music, which probably would've happened had they went with Black Sabbath. Along with a possible cease and desist order preventing them from further using the name knowing the Osbournes.

That, respectfully, makes no sense UNLESS Iommi also was guilty of exactly what Ozzy was accusing him of, and that's unfairly taking what wasn't his.  If he was really above board, and felt he was Black Sabbath and was entitled to the name, he would not have worried about "Heaven and Hell"; in fact, it would have strengthened his case in one sense.

If you read the complaint, his (Ozzy's) whole case is predicated on the fact that he was an active part of the band, and was promoting and marketing the band while Iommi wasn't (bolstered in part by the fact that he was occupied with Heaven and Hell).  Creating "Heaven and Hell" was a marketing thing for the fans (and probably a bone thrown to Dio, but I have no way of proving that) but it was NOT a good move legally with regard to the Ozzy lawsuit.

How does any thing to do with the Black Sabbath line up featuring Ronnie James Dio, Tony Iommi "unfairly taking what wasn't his"? Ozzy had nothing to do with that music.

 
It doesn't.  The "unfairly taking" was in reference to the fact that he and Ozzy had JOINTLY signed an agreement for merch under the Sabbath name (and using, among other things, Ozzy's likeness) and Tony sent a letter to the company saying they had to stop selling the merch because HE owned the name outright.  Think abuot that for a second.  You and your friend order a pizza to share, and just after the pizza is delivered and paid for, you run up to the waiter, and without telling your friend, order them to take the pizza back, and re-make it for you only.  That's a dick move. 
 

So even though the name may say Black Sabbath, as far as I'm concerned he has no right or claim to it. It's a time period of the band he wasn't involved in. As much as that may ruffle his feathers, that's his problem and his problem only.

 
Well, the law and all but one of the supporting documents (which I've never actually seen but understand exists from the response to the complaint) don't agree with you.  And they are right, unfortunately.  There are plenty of instances where a person has claim to a trademark that is generating income from activities that that person is no longer a part of.  And unless and until there is a subsequent agreement regarding that, it is fair game.  And there is a strong argument (in fact, it is the crux of Ozzy's case, in a sense) that all the income generated after Ozzy left is predicated at least in part on the "brand" that was established by Ozzy. 
 

Also I think Iommi knows it would've been a waste of his time to attempt to "strengthen his case" and take on the Osbournes for use of the Sabbath name instead of Heaven and Hell. The Osbournes have a lot more money than Tony Iommi does to pour into lawyers and legal battles, so not fighting them was only cutting his losses probably.

 
And you know this how? (A quick google, and remembering that even that info is suspect, shows that they aren't that far apart in estimated net worth.  Certainly not far enough apart for you to make these wild speculations as to their motive and intent). 
 

He didn't have the luxury of having his own reality show called the "Iommi's" to be a cash cow for him. And I won't say that trying to keep Ozzy from getting his hands on Heaven And Hell's money was the only reason for choosing the name Heaven And Hell I guess. But I believe fully it played a role. I have heard Dio say he wasn't too keen on doing the Ozzy numbers during all his stints in Sabbath so I'm sure going with Heaven and Hell made him much happier.

Which sort of makes my point. How do you know it had ANYTHING to do with Iommi and everything to do with Dio?  In fact, you've just hit on my opinion as to why they chose that name; remember, Dio didn't like Ozzy much, and did a lot to distance himself from Ozzy (think Costa Mesa). 

Am I naive for continuing to hope for Bill joining the album/tour?
 
I won't go see Sabbath without the original four.

Anyone see the FB page supporting Bill Ward.   It's really taking off.  I guess they had over 30,000 likes in the first 36 hours...or something like that. 
 
Anyway, it's called 1,000,000 Black Sabbath fans say Yes to Bill Ward.   
 
Hey...it worked for Betty White.  I think if this page were to really hit the big time, it would send a pretty clear message.   Find it if you're on Facebook....like it...share it..

i don't think you are naive for hoping - or if you are, I am too - but I don't know that I am so far parked in the "if Bill's not there, it is not worth doing" camp.  I think he is excellent (the live in Paris show is still one of the greatest, unreleased shows in rock history in my opinion) but I think they would be just as good with Mike Bordin, if the need arose.  I would not go with Vinnie Appice.
 
Has Ozzy every played a Sabbath gig without Bill?  I seem to think he has, but I don't know that for a fact.  Who filled in then?

Bill was sick for part of the original reunion tour...but I can't remember who filled in.

BWWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
 
Old idea...but honestly...this is REALLY funny!!!   Another "Hitler" video based on the theme of all this hubub.    With Hitler as "Mrs. Osbourne"....
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E78dXfhf04g

jammindude


Bill was sick for part of the original reunion tour...but I can't remember who filled in.

Mike Bordin from Faith No More.

See, that's who I'd like in now if Bill can't do it.  I think his style is complementary to Bill's.
 
Although, there is this one guy, he's pretty good.  Don't think he has a steady gig right this moment, and even if he did, he has shown he can handle several projects at once, and he has enough prog in his background to bring the flavor Bill brought (as opposed to the thunder that Vinnie brings).

from their facebook page:
''TOUR UPDATE: BAND’S SOLE EUROPEAN PERFORMANCE THIS SUMMER SET FOR U.K.’S DOWNLOAD FESTIVAL. OZZY & FRIENDS TO PERFORM MAJORITY OF OTHER SCHEDULED SHOWS

BLACK SABBATH --who late last year confirmed the recording of their first new album in more than 33 years and a worldwide headlining tour--have had to put some plans on hold due to Tony Iommi's battle with lymphoma. At this time, BLACK SABBATH will perform only one show of this summer’s previously scheduled European tour. It will take place Sunday, June 10 at the U.K.’s Download Festival.

So as not to let the promoters and fans down, Ozzy Osbourne will now perform the majority of the previously scheduled BLACK SABBATH dates (both festival performances and the headlining shows) billed as OZZY & FRIENDS. These “first ever” OZZY & FRIENDS shows will feature appearances by “special guest” musicians including Official Geezer Butler (who will join Ozzy for a special BLACK SABBATH set as a show of respect and support to their friend, Tony Iommi) and longtime former OZZY band member Zakk Wylde. In addition, OZZY will be accompanied by longtime collaborator and friend Slash at select shows, with other “special guests” set to join the tour at various stops along the way (full list of dates, appearances below).

Tony Iommi continues to make excellent progress and is looking forward to getting back out on the road. Meanwhile, BLACK SABBATH continue to write and record music in the U.K. for their upcoming album. More information about these dates and BLACK SABBATH’s recording and touring plans is forthcoming.''

Well I'll have to try to sell my ticket then. No Bill and especially Tony makes it a no go for me :( Sadly it will be hard to sell a one day ticket for a shitty festival.

Devnoy


Well I'll have to try to sell my ticket then. No Bill and especially Tony makes it a no go for me :( Sadly it will be hard to sell a one day ticket for a shitty festival.

Oh crap.  If Tony had to cancel due to his health, that may not bode well.  I am gonna be a mess when he does pass on.

They say that there's progress in his recovering, so perhaps they just decided for him only play the show in England so he can be near his treatment.
 
But didn't they also say about Dio one time that he was improving and that was obviously not the case? 

Well, for me, Sabbath=Iommi... I hope he will recover... But I have no interest in seeing Ozzy without Tony, with friends or not.

Bummer. Here's hoping that Tony gets better soon!
 
I'm not a big fan of Black Sabbath, but I have a ticket to see them when they come here. Bummer that this turned out to be anything but a full reuinon, but I'm still looking forward to an Ozzy gig with Zakk Wylde. I'm hoping he'll bring Mike Bordin too, but I guess chances are it'll either be Tommy Clufetos or Vinny Appice.

Looks like I'll have to wait to see them live. Get well Tony!

Ozzy and Slash are "longtime collaborators"? Granted I don't pay close attention to such details, but that struck me as weird.

DTD


Ozzy and Slash are "longtime collaborators"? Granted I don't pay close attention to such details, but that struck me as weird.

Yeah, if you call collaboration shooting each other up with oxycodone.  

Devnoy


They say that there's progress in his recovering, so perhaps they just decided for him only play the show in England so he can be near his treatment.

But didn't they also say about Dio one time that he was improving and that was obviously not the case? 

There's no way they can say anything other than that Tony is making a great recovery.  I REALLY hope it's true, but it's very likely not.  Think about it, this is Sharon booking the shows.  There would have to be a life-threatening situation afoot.  And I'm talking about HER life. [*rimshot*]
 
seriously, i did not get good vibes from that announcement, but I am hoping beyond hope that I am wrong.