SANCTIONED : DT - ADTOE Discussion

So, let's just have Lasse Hoile do the next one, huh? That'll be different. 

echobret


I think the Once In A Live Time album cover is an interesting and cool concept.

Good one, I forgot about that. If you think about it, the good DT covers are the one that try to be different, not that '''people badly photoshoped in weird places with weird objects'' thing. Aaaand it's by Storm Thorgerson!
 
 

Serensky


So, let's just have Lasse Hoile do the next one, huh? That'll be different. 

 
Haha I don't think Lasse would like that. I think they should call Dave McKean again. Or Carl Glover. Or Travis Smith. Smith generally do pretty meh album covers that look all the same with a lot of unnecessary texture all over the piece, but every once in a while he does something brilliant (see opeth's heritage).
Or Fursy Teyssier. Or anything but Syme.

^^^ Yeah I was thinking more about the studio albums' covers, which mainly suck. Actually 8V has a pretty cool cover as well as SFAM. ToT on the other hand, well, it's okay at best. But the live albums LaB, Once in a Livetime and particularly Score are pretty cool in my book. 

liquidrsr
^^^ Yeah I was thinking more about the studio albums' covers, which mainly suck. Actually 8V has a pretty cool cover as well as SFAM. ToT on the other hand, well, it's okay at best. But the live albums LaB, Once in a Livetime and particularly Score are pretty cool in my book.

Yeah, TOT is okay. Jerry Uelsmann has a cheesy way of using photo manipulation. I think the cover turned out good, but the rest of the booklet is totally cheese-fest.
I honestly don't like LaB and Score. They're like the cover art for SDOIT. Not a lot of content besides the band logo and the name of the album. Kinda boring. I dunno.
I think 8V cover could be better. It's a case of a cover that would look great without the name of the band or the name of the album. Just a picture of those pendulum-thingies would be awesome. On the other hand, the designs inside the booklet are pretty dope. The overall art direction of 8V is great.

I find it odd that MP said that he didn't think for a second that they'd have a problem finding someone to replace his role as a drummer and was worried more about the lyrics, the set-list, communicating with the fans etc.  To me, they've done a great job with all that other stuff and this album has solid song-writing.  And it's great to see JM shining on Breaking All Illusions, but I do miss MP's drumming, especially on that track. 
 
Beneath The Surface would be one of my favorite DT tracks ever except for JR, who I feel is too technically proficient for his own good, and I've never heard it so much before this track. Probably get flamed for saying that since I know how much a lot of people here love JR's playing and he seems like a genuinely great guy on a personal level.  But I think this would be great with either KM or DS instead.

I know he did FII and OIAL, but I like most of what I've seen of Storm Thorgerson. Don't know if DT would ever want to work with him again, though.

New interview with Petrucci: http://www.classicrockrev.../interviewpetrucci.htm
 
Some pretty direct questions including: Is the Grammy nomination sweeter because despite all the crap that Portnoy put you through you still succeeded to that level?

Classy Petrucci, shitty, biased, unprofessional interviewer.

oh shitty journalism, how do i love thee?
let me count the ways.

Grivu


DT have a history of crappy album art and DT fans generally aren't exactly knowledgeable on art theory(go figure), so I understand that there are a lot of people on the forum that think these are good covers, but trust me, almost any working artist out there could make a better cover than whatever Hugh Syme has been doing.

Y'now, I was sort of amusedly reading this and thinking that this is really what is magical about music:  it gets you thinking and considering the most minute of details... because really, at the end of the day, none of this actually changes a note of that CD.  You know that, right?
 
But then I read this post, and while I respect and like Grivu's input, this is for me where the conversation veers from "interesting but inconsequential details" to "totally and utterly missing the entire point".   Since when do you need a fucking art degree to enjoy the total Dream Theater experience?  It's not intended - I don't think, anyway - to be a massive art statement that makes comment on the human condition for all of time.  It is intended to sell an album.  Be pleasing to the people who are potentially going to buy the album but are otherwise on the fence. 
 
I'm the first guy to stand up for an interesting concept (I was the one a couple weeks ago that said "The Wall" should not be judged in the same way as other albums because it is a "package", including all the associated artwork and imagery), and am a HUGE fan of the thematic concept other bands have used (Maiden and Fish-era Marillion come to mind, though I think the idea of the demonic mascot with the corny name - ala "Murray" - is getting tired) but this is, I think, going too far.  I have over 1200 albums in my collection, and I would venture to say over half have a "stock image" of some kind on the cover. 
 
Sometimes it is wise to take Oz's advice and not look behind the curtain...

Scherztastic


Classy Petrucci, shitty, biased, unprofessional interviewer.

Not to create waves, but at the end of the "Grammy question" answer, Petrucci DID agree with the interviewer.  He didn't, in my view, say anything materially different than he has said before, but there was, in my opinion, a rawer edge to some of the things he said.  My opinion, only.   

Stadler

Y'now, I was sort of amusedly reading this and thinking that this is really what is magical about music:  it gets you thinking and considering the most minute of details... because really, at the end of the day, none of this actually changes a note of that CD.  You know that, right?

But then I read this post, and while I respect and like Grivu's input, this is for me where the conversation veers from "interesting but inconsequential details" to "totally and utterly missing the entire point".   Since when do you need a fucking art degree to enjoy the total Dream Theater experience?  It's not intended - I don't think, anyway - to be a massive art statement that makes comment on the human condition for all of time.  It is intended to sell an album.  Be pleasing to the people who are potentially going to buy the album but are otherwise on the fence. 

I'm the first guy to stand up for an interesting concept (I was the one a couple weeks ago that said "The Wall" should not be judged in the same way as other albums because it is a "package", including all the associated artwork and imagery), and am a HUGE fan of the thematic concept other bands have used (Maiden and Fish-era Marillion come to mind, though I think the idea of the demonic mascot with the corny name - ala "Murray" - is getting tired) but this is, I think, going too far.  I have over 1200 albums in my collection, and I would venture to say over half have a "stock image" of some kind on the cover. 

Sometimes it is wise to take Oz's advice and not look behind the curtain...

You're absolutely right, no one needs an art degree to enjoy DT's experience, and that's because there is nothing interesting being offered. Maybe that comes full circle and explains why most prog fans are not exactly design-savvy: Because they care more and sometimes exclusively about the music.
The music is still there, for sure. But the way I see, an artist doesn't need to limit himself to notes. Steven Wilson doesn't offer ''some notes''. He offers an experience. He cares about the packaging, the movie clips, the lyrics, the music, everything. And that, for me, as an buyer, is worth much much more than whatever song you can come up with.
You say DT is not supposed to be ''an art statement that makes comment on the human condition for all of time''. And you're right.
Maybe that's why I don't care about them anymore.
Also, at the risk of sounding rude, I think I should say that if you separate art and music, you are ''totally and utterly missing the entire point''.

Grivu


You're absolutely right, no one needs an art degree to enjoy DT's experience, and that's because there is nothing interesting being offered. Maybe that comes full circle and explains why most prog fans are not exactly design-savvy: Because they care more and sometimes exclusively about the music.

 
No, no, no, don't misunderstand me.  It is your generalization that I have issue with.  I have no art degree.  I do like to draw, and as part of undergrad engineering I took some design classes, but I am in no way even remotely educated in this way.  And yet, I don't care "exclusively about the music".  Re-read what I said about The Wall.  I have pored over the album cover for "Tales from Topographic Oceans" and "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" for hours that probably should be counted in days at this point.  I was pissed and grateful, respectfully that I could not read the liner notes to Tales on Cd and I could read the impossible story in The Lamb.  Dude, I even can associate the smells of the early Kiss albums (anyone with me on that? They had this wierd smell to them when you bought them; I think it was the goodies they loaded in there) with the listening experience.  You are NOT talking to someone who ignores the "experience" or to whom it doesn't matter.  What I am saying is that most of my "experiencing" was pre-internet.  And I didn't know - and didn't care - if the background to "Wish You Were Here" was a stock image of the Warner Bros. Studio or not (it was).   The cover still OWNED.   Or the cover of Led Zeppelin I is a standard image of the Hindenberg; that cover still owns too. 
 

The music is still there, for sure. But the way I see, an artist doesn't need to limit himself to notes. Steven Wilson doesn't offer ''some notes''. He offers an experience. He cares about the packaging, the movie clips, the lyrics, the music, everything. And that, for me, as an buyer, is worth much much more than whatever song you can come up with.
You say DT is not supposed to be ''an art statement that makes comment on the human condition for all of time''. And you're right.

Maybe that's why I don't care about them anymore.

 
Again, that is NOT what I said.  In fact, I believe the opposite: I think DT DOES want to make an artistic statement that blah blah blah.  Mike and John and Jordan and John didn't practice almost their entire lives to NOT make a statement.  What I was saying - and I said it poorly - is that the PICTURE ITSELF wasn't such a statement.  The package may be, but I think the notion of an "iconic"  image is not something that bands do each and every release.  There are moments in time - The Joshua Tree for example - that might rise to that, and I can't tell you why U2 does that for that album and does whatever the mess was on "Pop" that they did there for that (clearly NOT a stab at iconisism). 

Also, at the risk of sounding rude, I think I should say that if you separate art and music, you are ''totally and utterly missing the entire point''.

Wouldn't argue; and I am doing no such thing.  I am saying, though, that a lot of people enjoy eating sausages; it's not necessary (and sometimes not advised) that people who like sausages actually know how they are made.

Stadler said: but I think the notion of an "iconic"  image is not something that bands do each and every release.
 
I think most icons are created by the audience, not by a band (or a designer, painter or another artist). An artists tries to create something that expresses emotion and timelessnes (is that a word). But if the audience thinks it sucks, it will never be iconic.
 
For the rest, with you all the way. Music and artwork comes together and should supplement each other. Interested in arts, interested in music, but not able to produce something worthwhile watching or listening to myself. Still enjoying lots of things, and also disliking some others.

Stadler


No, no, no, don't misunderstand me.  It is your generalization that I have issue with.  I have no art degree.  I do like to draw, and as part of undergrad engineering I took some design classes, but I am in no way even remotely educated in this way.  And yet, I don't care "exclusively about the music".  Re-read what I said about The Wall.  I have pored over the album cover for "Tales from Topographic Oceans" and "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" for hours that probably should be counted in days at this point.  I was pissed and grateful, respectfully that I could not read the liner notes to Tales on Cd and I could read the impossible story in The Lamb.  Dude, I even can associate the smells of the early Kiss albums (anyone with me on that? They had this wierd smell to them when you bought them; I think it was the goodies they loaded in there) with the listening experience.  You are NOT talking to someone who ignores the "experience" or to whom it doesn't matter.  What I am saying is that most of my "experiencing" was pre-internet.  And I didn't know - and didn't care - if the background to "Wish You Were Here" was a stock image of the Warner Bros. Studio or not (it was).   The cover still OWNED.   Or the cover of Led Zeppelin I is a standard image of the Hindenberg; that cover still owns too. 

Point taken. I don't really have a problem with stock images either. But I do believe they can be better when they're made specifically for the project.
But c'mon dude, generalizations are essential to life. Of course I know there are lots and lots and lots of prog fans that do care about music being something larger than what it is. But in my perception, a very large part of this demographic doesn't.
 

Stadler

Again, that is NOT what I said.  In fact, I believe the opposite: I think DT DOES want to make an artistic statement that blah blah blah.  Mike and John and Jordan and John didn't practice almost their entire lives to NOT make a statement.  What I was saying - and I said it poorly - is that the PICTURE ITSELF wasn't such a statement.  The package may be, but I think the notion of an "iconic"  image is not something that bands do each and every release.  There are moments in time - The Joshua Tree for example - that might rise to that, and I can't tell you why U2 does that for that album and does whatever the mess was on "Pop" that they did there for that (clearly NOT a stab at iconisism). 

 
Well...maybe you didn't said that, but it still certainly is what I believe. This is another completely different subject, but I think DT's music these days have too little artistic merit. For my taste anyways, and maybe I wish that they would offer a little more. I mean, if you're going to make a bunch of songs and albums that sound very much the same, at least try to make something unique in the other aspects of the project.
BUT that's just my opinion concerning this particular band.
Many bands that I like (Ulver, Alcest, Sunn O))), for example) are very very very visually oriented, so they make sure every visual aspect of the albums are very very iconic. Do they need to do that? No. But it makes the whole experience a lot better.
 

Stadler

Wouldn't argue; and I am doing no such thing.  I am saying, though, that a lot of people enjoy eating sausages; it's not necessary (and sometimes not advised) that people who like sausages actually know how they are made.

Absolutely. I'm not saying I only listen to albums with good covers. The sausages are fine for what they are. But as someone who knows a thing or two about sausages, I know they could be better.

Grivu


But c'mon dude, generalizations are essential to life.

 
I TOTALLY disagree with that statement.  I know it is common, it is also a human survival technique of sorts, and I also know that it is essential at times to make sense of the massive amount of information that humans encounter every day.  But I also know that they are a dangerous tool when used too broadly, and when used to make decisions about the population being "generalized" (ask any group that has only been given the right to vote within the last 100 years...)

Well...maybe you didn't said that, but it still certainly is what I believe. This is another completely different subject, but I think DT's music these days have too little artistic merit. For my taste anyways, and maybe I wish that they would offer a little more. I mean, if you're going to make a bunch of songs and albums that sound very much the same, at least try to make something unique in the other aspects of the project.
BUT that's just my opinion concerning this particular band.
Many bands that I like (Ulver, Alcest, Sunn O))), for example) are very very very visually oriented, so they make sure every visual aspect of the albums are very very iconic. Do they need to do that? No. But it makes the whole experience a lot better.

 
I'm going to go out on a limb here, though, and say that while you are correct (in the sense that I can't tell you your opinion is wrong), whenever someone says "so-and-so band has lost this-or-that..." I immediately translate that into the usually far more accurate "I have grown apart from that band and their message".  Not saying that every band has the exact same level of artistic achievement throughout their career, but when you have an artist that has as varied a catalogue as DT (I&W is not the same album as BD&SL) to prefer one over another is not always a measure of that bands' artistic integrity, but rather the listener's ability to synch with the various messages being offered.  I prefer the more proggy, Rush-like earlier output over the more metal, Metallica-like later output (talking only of the Portnoy era, here).  Doesn't make one "better" than the other, or more artistically "valid" than the other.  Just means I connect more with the proggier stuff.  Same, in my opinion, with your assessment of the "artistic merit" of the work.
 
(Full disclosure, though; I have a theory that does not agree with what I said above, and tends to support your position, but it isn't relevant to this thread, and probably a can of worms I can't open on this forum.)
 

I still haven't been able to bring myself to listen to ADTOE. I tried to listen to one of the songs on YouTube because I wanted to see how Mangini is fitting in. Just made me so sad I couldn't do it.

Petrucci is an honest person. Saying he is bad at doing interviews is asinine. He skirted around the awful questions and gave tactful answers.

Why should this thread even exist if people only bash Dream Theater? I'm not Pro/Anti either side of the debate, but it's very clear that some are very pro-Portnoy. I get it, it's cute. I like Portnoy, too. But there were other people in the band. I know Mike says that all people had to do was say something and he'd let them do it (interviews, lyrics etc), but it is rarely an easy thing to do with someone with a personality like Portnoy. And that's not even a knock on him, either. JP is very passive, MP is much more aggressive.

I don't get how you can like a band for years and years, then as soon as your favorite member leaves, you have to talk shit about the remaining members. Regardless of the quality/sound of the music, use some fucking tact. It's no better than the MP bashers on other forums.

Wow. And I'm on my phone and totally misread the post I was disagreeing with. Can't edit.

I'm sorry, didn't see the punctuation. Thus, I read it as "JP is a shitty interviewer" :(

Lol s'all good snapple. Funny too cause I completely agree with you on your post, and didn't even imagine you were talking about mine :P.

I still like the album and give it a spin once in a week... A good album.

Just saw DT on the Red Carpet. Pretty cool.

White Limo (Foo Fighters) beat OTBOA .... :(

But I find it pretty cool that the grammy band plays "green tinted sixties mind" by Mr.Big all over the place! At least someone has a taste there... ;) Btw no offense, I love the Foos!

Was good seeing them on the red carpet though: http://www.grammy.com/photos/dream-theater

They just lost to the Foo Fighters.

Yuk. Wasting Light is a fantastic album. 9/10 for me. And White Limo is DEFINITELY the worst song on the album, IMO. Not that expected DT to win a Grammy even for 1 second.

MajesticNick


Was good seeing them on the red carpet though: http://www.grammy.com/photos/dream-theater

seeing that picture put a huge smile on my face.
 
.....too bad it wasn't MP there, but I'm still incredibly happy Mike Mangini got to be there instead.... but it was MP's hard work all those albums who deseved to be in the tux, holding his friends arm in arm.

Glassdream "it was MP's hard work all those albums who deseved to be in the tux, holding his friends arm in arm. "
 
 
They were there because of OTBOA. MP had nothing to do with that song.

DTman2112


Yuk. Wasting Light is a fantastic album. 9/10 for me. And White Limo is DEFINITELY the worst song on the album, IMO. Not that expected DT to win a Grammy even for 1 second.

White Limo is the only great song (with perhaps I Should Have Known) on that album amongst a few good and many mediocre ones. 
 
But White Limo is a lot better than OTBOA, the Foos deserved to win with that one (but not with Walk if you ask me) 

A51502112


Glassdream "it was MP's hard work all those albums who deseved to be in the tux, holding his friends arm in arm. "


They were there because of OTBOA. MP had nothing to do with that song.

I was making a generalization of MP being a part DT's entire career (except for the recent album) to make it that far...... dats all.

New Interview of JL
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QRz7-Cohio
 
a kind of awkward he never refer to MP on writing process.. even e talks about Kevin Moore on writing process. Maybe he is one of the members that never replied to MP e-mail...
 

Look, mods delete the post not the thread, but if anyone - based on interviews and published statements - at this point thinks JL has any love for Mike isn't paying attention. 

Stadler,
 
Although being a forum member since 2008, i'm new here. Sorry if i´m saying something against the rules. Is not my intention.

^^^ I was refering to my post, not yours.  I leave that to the mods, they know their job better than I do.
 
I just know listening to that interview, talking about the history of the band and not mentioning Mike ONE TIME (that I could tell) is like... talking about Yes and not mentioning Jon Anderson.  It's like you have to go out of your way to NOT mention Mike.   

Stadler



I just know listening to that interview, talking about the history of the band and not mentioning Mike ONE TIME (that I could tell) is like... talking about Yes and not mentioning Jon Anderson.  It's like you have to go out of your way to NOT mention Mike.   

the interview is bothering me for exactly that reason. JL is putting emphasis on everyone else, when we as the fans know damn well Mike had the hugest part in helping craft the direction of DT's history.

Given the recent history between Mike and James, could you blame James though?  Not saying either is right or wrong, but Mike and James have defiinitely not been on good terms since Mike left. 

DT2003


Given the recent history between Mike and James, could you blame James though?  Not saying either is right or wrong, but Mike and James have defiinitely not been on good terms since Mike left. 

Considering everything that happened and everything Mike said, I'm surprised JP and JR are still trying to talk to him. Mike burned some bridges that day and I can't blame any of the guys for resenting him.

No biggie. I don't think MP and JLB have been close for a long time. I don't see that
changing any time soon.

Grivu

You're absolutely right, no one needs an art degree to enjoy DT's experience, and that's because there is nothing interesting being offered. Maybe that comes full circle and explains why most prog fans are not exactly design-savvy: Because they care more and sometimes exclusively about the music.

You say this as if you know all of the thousands, upon thousands of prog fans across the globe. You know for a fact that most prog fans are not design savvy? Wow, you know a lot of people. Not only do you know them, but you know about their artistic shrewdness. Or maybe because you are on a forum or two that talks about prog you assume you know all of the prog fans across the globe? Or because in your X amount of years of life you've run into a couple of prog fans here and there, so you think you know them all?  Generalization's like that are not going to help you convince many people to agree with what you are saying imo.