"LOST" Season SIX/LAST season discussion (spoilers)

I just wonder what is the alignment of the Dharma Initiative in the Jacob Vs MiB power struggle.

As far as we know, there are 3 timelines:

In the original timeline Ben is (or was, at the point of wiping the DI) aligned with Richard. Which would imply he was aligned with Jacob, indirectly. And as part of the plan, they killed everyone involved in the DI.

In new island timeline, they didn't murder anybody, the DI was evacuated right before Jughead went off.

In the current alternate timeline, Ben is not even in the DI.

But, let's just focus on the original timeline. Ben, before the Losties come into play and with the help of Richard and the Hostiles, murders everyone in the DI. This has some implications. The death of all those people means that they were not neutral in the power struggle. Jacob supports this, allegedly, as Richard appears to be his spokesman. This raises interesting questions: 

- Does this mean that the DI were in some shape or form, aligned with the MiB? 
- Is the DI part of the loophole the MiB needed in order to murder Jacob? 

And (to me) the most important question of all:

- What does supporting such a violent act say about Jacob? Is it possible that the tables are actually turned and that because we're just seeing a part of the truth, we are being misguided into believing that Jacob is the good guy when in fact it might be otherwise?

BigBrainBrad

JNA



Was Jacob's cabin with the ash circle around it used to imprison MIB's body or someone else's. When Ben and Locke visited the Cabin no one was there until it started shaking and we caught a glimpse of a man in a chair. Whomever it was said "Help Me". We later see Christian Shephard in the Cabin. Christian Shephard died and his Body was on the plane when it crashed. Maybe the MIB was using Christians body to do his work until he decided to take Lockes. MIB did visit Locke and seemed to read his mind the same way he read Richard's on the Boat. It seemed to me like the smoke was taking pictures of Richard when it appeared on the Black Rock.

I am thinking that the MIB was somehow trapped in the cabin....the cirlcle of ash keeping him in...so maybe Ben was in fact being duped by the MIB?
 
One mystery that I am dying to know the answer to is where did the Wheel that can move the Island come from? What technology is it based on? (from another planet? LOL)
 
- A theory that I find completely intriguing is that perhaps Jacob and MIB are both the same person? In other words they each represent one side of the same person. Jacob=light MIB= dark.
- Another possibility is that just as in the game "MYST".....they could be brothers who are actually BOTH bad....someone else made a great point when they pointed out that both Jacob and MIB have killed people..they just use different methods.
 
- Finally could this just be the old "Nature vs Nurture" debate ? Man is inherently evil or inherently good?

Somehow my post ended up in the "Quote message" area as well. Not sure how to fix that...

Just for the hell of it I have been doing some reading and found some interesting things. 

I'm sure these things have probably been investigated by others as well but it's still interesting.

To try and make sense of what's really going on between Jacob and MIB I started with reading about Cain and Able. There are some interesting similarities but it could be once piece of the puzzle. Also, Sawyers story of, Of Mice and Men when he was walking with MibLocke is a derivative of the Cain and Able story. 

Also, there are some other interesting similarities to Romulus and Remus and The Gemini Twins. 

The Gemini Twins story is interesting because they shared a mother who was immortal and two different fathers that were not. If I remember correctly they weren't actually twins until one of the brothers decided to share his power of immortality to save his brother. They were joined and became twins. Other myths about them was that they were both immortal and had some duties to protect something. I should have copy pasted some of this because I'm sure I screwed some of it up. So take this stuff with a grain of salt. 

Also, the stories about Atlantis are interesting since it was supposed to be an island that ended up disappearing into the ocean. 

Perhaps, many of the special characteristics have been taken from the stories about the brothers and or twins mentioned above to create the characters Jacob and MIB.

One last thing to add. Will we ever understand the significance of the island having A Temple, tunnels, catacombs(?) and other structures. If they are not important then why did Jacob try so hard to keep MIB out? 
The Temple seemed to be a place with hidden tunnels that would lead to key places on the island. Two people by themselves wouldn't need a Temple of that size along with all the secret passages if it were not important. I can only speculate that there had to be at one point more people on the island pre-dating any time stamp we have seen. Someone had to build all that and add all the hieroglyphs as well as dig the well and build the lighthouse. It would have taken Jacob years to build a lighthouse by himself and use it to see into the future. Only the producers know. Maybe Jacob and MIB are being cursed to stay on the island because there little game backfired and killed everyone. Jacob may have accepted his sentence and MIB didn't. The only way to free themselves is to find two pawns to take there place and continue to serve there sentence. It's another stretch as I exhaust my mind trying to cover any possibilities. This is the first season I have actually watched only seeing one episode per week. I always used to wait and get the whole season and watch each season in order. I like it better that way but, If I did that then I wouldn't have all this fun over analyzing every theory. 

4+8+15+16+23+42=108=Desmond?

Has this been mentioned before about the numbers equaling 108 ? This is the number that Hurley and Jack were supposed to turn the dial in the lighthouse to.

hondo22


4+8+15+16+23+42=108=Desmond?

Has this been mentioned before about the numbers equaling 108 ? This is the number that Hurley and Jack were supposed to turn the dial in the lighthouse to.

Actually the number on the dial in the lighthouse says Wallace.

The secret I'm eager to find out about is: what the hell happened in the Season 2 Finale, when Desmond turned the failsafe? Cool, he "prevented" the world from ending, but he saved the world from... what??? I am making this up as I go along, but maybe the electromagnetism hidden in the island is the mechanism that keeps the MiB inside the island. 

I have a completely unrelated question... How did kate manage to escape the law in the "normal" timeline when the oceanic 6 got out of the island??
I don't remember her actually changing her name... did they explain that? I honestly cannot remember.

Maxi


I have a completely unrelated question... How did kate manage to escape the law in the "normal" timeline when the oceanic 6 got out of the island??
I don't remember her actually changing her name... did they explain that? I honestly cannot remember.

They did explain it but the exacts of it escape me now.

Maxi


I have a completely unrelated question... How did kate manage to escape the law in the "normal" timeline when the oceanic 6 got out of the island??
I don't remember her actually changing her name... did they explain that? I honestly cannot remember.

She went on trial, but her mother wouldn't testify against her so in the end she was given 10 years probation and confined to the state. 


I didn't remember this myself so I used my favorite website: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kate_Austen

Softball35

danielreid


Aw geeze how come people continue to post spoilers in this thread? Its bloody annoying, I mean I don't get worked up about things like episode titles but I know people do... so why bother risking it by posting?

Well the title name that he posted for the final episode doesn't spoil anything. Now the link for the other episodes does so I would understand being upset for clicking on that link not knowing the title names were there but for anyone getting upset over the last episode name being posted is just being silly and over-dramatic. Now if the last episode title was "Not over yet, another season coming" then THAT would be a major spoiler.

Well I disagree, and can't explain why because my theory is based entirely on the title of the last episode and what it REALLY means.

danielreid



Well I disagree, and can't explain why because my theory is based entirely on the title of the last episode and what it REALLY means.

Well no one knows what it REALLY means at this point. Personally I think you are reading into it too much but again no one knows how it will end. The thing though that perplexes me is that this thread has listed the word "spoilers" in the thread title so one can expect in fact spoilers in the thread. Perhaps this thread would do better if any future episode spoilers that may be leaked not be posted in this thread, so it is only current episode spoilers. Well I am rambling now.

danielreid

Maxi


I have a completely unrelated question... How did kate manage to escape the law in the "normal" timeline when the oceanic 6 got out of the island??
I don't remember her actually changing her name... did they explain that? I honestly cannot remember.

She went on trial, but her mother wouldn't testify against her so in the end she was given 10 years probation and confined to the state. 


I didn't remember this myself so I used my favorite website: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kate_Austen

If I remember correctly, Jack also testified at this trial for Kate. (and he lied... Well, they all did... to protect the island... and themselves...)

Moro


As far as we know, there are 3 timelines:

In the original timeline Ben is (or was, at the point of wiping the DI) aligned with Richard. Which would imply he was aligned with Jacob, indirectly. And as part of the plan, they killed everyone involved in the DI.

In new island timeline, they didn't murder anybody, the DI was evacuated right before Jughead went off.

In the current alternate timeline, Ben is not even in the DI.

Why can't your last two timelines be one timeline?  How do we know that Ben didn't just leave the DI and become a teacher?

He did. That's what his father said in the ALT Timeline. Paraphrasing: "Maybe if we had stayed with that Dharma Initiative, your life would have been better."

The last two can't be the same timeline because that would involve characters being in two places at the same time. We're not shown if Ben (as a kid) leaves the DI during the evacuation OR if he stays behind, given that he had been shot by Sayid, and is presumably still at the temple. 

But even if he did leave, the rest of the cast didn't, they stayed. And they're all in both timelines, the present, post-incident one, and the flash-sideways one. So, those have to be two separate universes. 

MAYBE, we are beign tricked by the writers. Maybe some of the flash-sideways can coexist with the present island timeline, and in fact do. Some obviously can't. The flash-sideways reality for Ben does not have to be the one that involves the DI being evacuated right before the incident. The fact that Roger and Ben Linus left the DI can be related to a different reason. However, given it was the only episode no major characters appeared in the flash-sideways (just Alex and Artz, both dead in the present island timeline), it might as well be possible. But that's just that particular case. Jack can't be in the present timeline and in the island at the same time (unless they're using a quantum mechanics explanation for this, with multiverses and the like). Same for Dogen, Sawyer, Miles, etc... 

To me, there are those 3 timelines. However this is just to recap, and the main questions of my original post still stands, whether there is 2 o 3 timelines. 

Is Jacob really a good guy, given he arranged through Richard the death of all those people? What is the alignment of the DI in this power struggle? Are they a part of the loophole? I'm really interested to see what sort of role they had in the big picture.

Twice the "hired Killer" was told to stab the guy before he speaks.
Both times it didn't work because the guy spoke.
MIB spoke to Sayid then he stabbed MIB and no kill. Then Jacob spoke to Richard at the beach. (didn't even get a chance to kill him)
How was Ben able to kill Jacob in the temple when Jacob was speaking to Ben?
Seems to easy for Ben to just stab Jacob like that.

skip63


Twice the "hired Killer" was told to stab the guy before he speaks.
Both times it didn't work because the guy spoke.
MIB spoke to Sayid then he stabbed MIB and no kill. Then Jacob spoke to Richard at the beach. (didn't even get a chance to kill him)
How was Ben able to kill Jacob in the temple when Jacob was speaking to Ben?
Seems to easy for Ben to just stab Jacob like that.

I think it just took the right amount of motivation.  

Jacob, I think, is probably human, while MiB is some magical creature that can't die, which is why he's forced to stay on the island.

skip63


Twice the "hired Killer" was told to stab the guy before he speaks.
Both times it didn't work because the guy spoke.
MIB spoke to Sayid then he stabbed MIB and no kill. Then Jacob spoke to Richard at the beach. (didn't even get a chance to kill him)
How was Ben able to kill Jacob in the temple when Jacob was speaking to Ben?
Seems to easy for Ben to just stab Jacob like that.

I think it has to do with the fact that those 2 times, the people who tried to use the blade were SENT to do it. Sayid was sent by Dogen. Richard was sent by Flocke. Someone else told them to do it and they followed orders blindly.


Ben did it because HE wanted to do it, Flocke just put both of 'em in the same room, but in the end, it was Ben who wanted to kill him out of anger. Jacob even provoked him, "What about you?".

spocks_brow

skip63


Twice the "hired Killer" was told to stab the guy before he speaks.
Both times it didn't work because the guy spoke.
MIB spoke to Sayid then he stabbed MIB and no kill. Then Jacob spoke to Richard at the beach. (didn't even get a chance to kill him)
How was Ben able to kill Jacob in the temple when Jacob was speaking to Ben?
Seems to easy for Ben to just stab Jacob like that.

I think it just took the right amount of motivation.  

Jacob, I think, is probably human, while MiB is some magical creature that can't die, which is why he's forced to stay on the island.

why do you think Jacob is human? 

Because when stabbed in the heart, he died, unlike MiB

spocks_brow


Because when stabbed in the heart, he died, unlike MiB

i see. but what about the fact that he's been there for hundreds or thousands of years? or how he seems to have healing powers? damn this show is the craziest show ever.

tjanuranus

spocks_brow


Because when stabbed in the heart, he died, unlike MiB

i see. but what about the fact that he's been there for hundreds or thousands of years? or how he seems to have healing powers? damn this show is the craziest show ever.

I think that he is human, and maybe the powers were given to him just like how he says one of the candidates must take his place.  I imagine whoever does take his place will have his powers yet still be human

Moro

However, given it was the only episode no major characters appeared in the flash-sideways (just Alex and Artz, both dead in the present island timeline), it might as well be possible.

 
Lock appears in it as well.  Interesting theory though.

shred440

tjanuranus

spocks_brow


Because when stabbed in the heart, he died, unlike MiB

i see. but what about the fact that he's been there for hundreds or thousands of years? or how he seems to have healing powers? damn this show is the craziest show ever.

I think that he is human, and maybe the powers were given to him just like how he says one of the candidates must take his place.  I imagine whoever does take his place will have his powers yet still be human

Definitely an interesting theory. Maybe this is part of Jacob's plan that MIB doesn't understand due to his own desire to leave the island. Maybe once a candidate is chosen, the only way Jacob can relinquish his duty on the island is to give up his immortality and sacrifice himself. As far as we know no one has excepted or chosen to take Jacob's place. If it was so easy for MIB to just kill Jacob and leave the island then why would be still be there? Obviously, that still has to be some sort of catch. Jacob could be some sort of mythological angel. He had the power of immortality (or at least able to give it), so we can only speculate that he had to give that up to still be a factor and protect the island. For some reason I get this Harry Potter like vibe, when Dumbledore died he was still functioning inside a portrait along with others, but, only because he chose it. Sort of like how the ghosts at Hogwarts chose to remain on earth in a ghostly form. Jacob dying could be one of many ways to help protect some secret. Just like Dumbeldore maybe Jacob was/is still on a quest to understand everything and his dying was something that had to happen to be able to "get" it all. Aren't there mythological stories of people giving up there immortality to be with there love interest on earth? Or was that just something from a movie I remember? 

Jacob mentioned something to Jack about someone coming to the island and to make sure whoever it was got to the island in The Lighthouse. Is it Widmore showing up with his sonic fence surrounding parts of Hydra island another hurdle for MIB to try and cross? Or is it someone else and we have only been lead to believe that it could be Widmore? Is MIB expecting Widmore to be on Hydra island with a submarine and that is his vehicle off the island or is there something else on that island and Widmore is protecting it against MIB? Which leads me to ask this question. Why can't MIB just go to the frozen wheel, turn it, and transport himself to Tunisia? 

As mentioned in an earlier post, someone posed the question of what really happened when Desmond turned the fail safe key at the swan hatch that inevitably caused it to implode and release the pocket of energy. it's definitely interesting. Maybe all that electro magnetic energy is the real force keeping MIB on the island. When Ben killed all the Dharma perhaps it was cause he knew that eventually they could have released all that energy either destroying the island entirely or releasing the MIB from his prison. Sounds plausible if Jacob actually gave Ben the order to exterminate them. Either that or Ben just really hated Dharma. It's all possible speculation. 

When Ben moved the island he said something along the lines of whoever moves it can't come back. Was that Ben just being the great manipulator he was, just saying that as well as adding all those metal objects inside the Time Transport container thingy at the Orchid station. Did frying up the container at the Orchid plus moving the wheel cause it to become unbalanced and send the island bouncing through time? The frozen wheel must have been moved before and Ben knew how it worked. Ben was either incredibly smart or incredibly stupid if he was unsure about the effects of moving the wheel. Interestingly enough when Ben was transported from the frozen wheel he ended up 10 months ahead of his present time on the island. When he told Locke that whomever moved the island could not come back. He could have left out the part about knowing Eloise Hawking and the Lamp Post station. Remember, Ben always has a plan. I wonder if Ben and Widmore are actually working together and the idea that they are enemies is part of the plan. All the questioning etc. could be code talk that only they can understand. I'm sure I'm reading into this stuff way more than I should  and the answer is sitting on the surface, right in front of all of us, only the blinders are on...

Moro

skip63


Twice the "hired Killer" was told to stab the guy before he speaks.
Both times it didn't work because the guy spoke.
MIB spoke to Sayid then he stabbed MIB and no kill. Then Jacob spoke to Richard at the beach. (didn't even get a chance to kill him)
How was Ben able to kill Jacob in the temple when Jacob was speaking to Ben?
Seems to easy for Ben to just stab Jacob like that.

I think it has to do with the fact that those 2 times, the people who tried to use the blade were SENT to do it. Sayid was sent by Dogen. Richard was sent by Flocke. Someone else told them to do it and they followed orders blindly.


Ben did it because HE wanted to do it, Flocke just put both of 'em in the same room, but in the end, it was Ben who wanted to kill him out of anger. Jacob even provoked him, "What about you?".

Actually....Ben WAS told/sent to do it. Don't you remember that He was told by his daughter(MIB in disguise) that he HAD to do whatever Locke told him to do? Then later, Lock says to Ben "I'm not going to kill him(Jacob) you are!"

Even so, there is the fact that Jacob didn´t even tried to defend himself from Ben. But I think we are on a good track, defining what was different between the time Richard tried to kill Jacob and Ben trying to kill Jacob.

Raymitox


Even so, there is the fact that Jacob didn´t even tried to defend himself from Ben. But I think we are on a good track, defining what was different between the time Richard tried to kill Jacob and Ben trying to kill Jacob.

Jacob allowed Ben to stab/kill him plain and simple. He knew all along that Ben was going to do it (telling Miles that he hoped he was wrong about Ben, but he wasn't) For whatever reason, I'm sure we will learn why, he let Ben stab him. We saw how he whipped Richard on the beach so we know he can defend himself. He wasn't stabbed with that ceremonial knife either, it was a "normal" one so that just leads me to believe even more that Jacob knew that Ben stabbing him wouldn't kill him per say, just give him a different ability, ala Obe Won Kenobi.

Locke didn't say to Ben "You have to kill Jacob"(an order) he said "you are going to kill Jacob"(a prediction). And then Locke reasoned with Ben why he would have reasons to kill Jacob.  (Locke made Ben pissed him off enough that he wanted to kill Jacob)

hondo22

Moro

skip63


Twice the "hired Killer" was told to stab the guy before he speaks.
Both times it didn't work because the guy spoke.
MIB spoke to Sayid then he stabbed MIB and no kill. Then Jacob spoke to Richard at the beach. (didn't even get a chance to kill him)
How was Ben able to kill Jacob in the temple when Jacob was speaking to Ben?
Seems to easy for Ben to just stab Jacob like that.

I think it has to do with the fact that those 2 times, the people who tried to use the blade were SENT to do it. Sayid was sent by Dogen. Richard was sent by Flocke. Someone else told them to do it and they followed orders blindly.


Ben did it because HE wanted to do it, Flocke just put both of 'em in the same room, but in the end, it was Ben who wanted to kill him out of anger. Jacob even provoked him, "What about you?".

Actually....Ben WAS told/sent to do it. Don't you remember that He was told by his daughter(MIB in disguise) that he HAD to do whatever Locke told him to do? Then later, Lock says to Ben "I'm not going to kill him(Jacob) you are!"

That's right, but the difference is, Ben felt like doing it too. Sayid didn't want to kill Flocke. Richard didn't want to kill Jacob. Those acts were just means to an end (for Sayid it was proving he was a good guy, for Richard it was "killing the devil"). But there was no emotion behind them. Both people were acting on faith alone. Ben wasn't. Ben was manipulated into feeling that way. And he didn't kill Jacob to get something. He just wanted to kill him. And Jacob wanted to be "killed".

Think of it this way: Flocke could simply say: If you don't kill Jacob, I'll kill you. He could have used that, he's the smoke monster. He has lied and killed, so no reason not to do things that way. However, he pushed Ben through a train of thought (DT pun intended) that would lead to Ben WANTING to kill Jacob. That has to be significant.

I knew that the package was going to be Desmond!  I'm pretty sure that Jin is candidate #42, not Sun... 

I'm so excited!  The show has really gotten to a point where it's time to stop guessing and time to just let it happen, because I've really got no clue what's going to happen next... 

OK, Maybe this is an old idea, but it just occurred to me and I'm not going to work real hard to find out if I am the first one (I can't be - this is too obvious.)

MIB seems to have corporeal power on the island, while Jacob seems to wield spiritual power.  Jacob won't intervene directly, but encourages people to do the right thing, while MIB takes direct action and lies to get what he wants (he lies, right?)  Jacob could be said to have sacrificed himself via Ben when from all we have seen he could have easily avoided it.  MIB wears many faces and is a master manipulator.  MIB can be kept at bay with a protective circle.  Jacob can heal.  MIB hangs out with people who seem to have lost their souls.

Sounds an awful lot like God/Jesus and Satan to me.

I'm no theologian so I can't take this idea very far, but right now it really seems to fit...in my little head anyway.

As to this evening's show - Sun's speech issue seems to point so some kind of reconciliation with the alternate timeline, as has been postulated by others.  But in general I really couldn't care less about the Kwons - they are easily my least favorite characters.  And why didn't Flocke take Sun while she was knocked out?  Or did he get her soul?

Damn I love this show!

The only thing more irritating than trying to figure out what is going on is the HUGE "V RETURNS IN (Countdown Clock)" that took up half the damn screen tonight during our local broadcast.

Okay ABC, we get it. The show is coming back on. You've been pounding us with commercials for it for the last MONTH. The damn countdown clock was so big you couldn't even read what Sun wrote on the paper at the end.

Wey, thats true. Luckily it was easy to figure out what she wrote, but I couldn't read it either.

You Guys!  Desmond!  He's Back!  Did you see???!!!  Did you??!!

Brilliant Cliffhanger.  I had my suspicions, but it was quite another thing to be so validated and see my favorite character return to the island (FINALLY)!

I think the game just hit critical mass brother!

It just so seems that a few of us got lucky and guessed that Desmond might be the package. *High Five

We can only once again speculate as to how much Widmore knows about the island. Does Widmore know something about Desmond that Desmond doesn't know? Could that have been his reason for not wanting him to marry Pen? For her safety or for the fact that she was going to end up losing him in the end anyway and didn't want his daughter losing her love forever...

I think it would be fascinating if Jacob had a bloodline with a descendent(s) being one of the #815 survivors or a character that we already know from the island. 

A couple of interesting things I gleaned from tonight's episode... 
The flash sideways seems like a vision of course correcting. Sun was pregnant, which she wasn't before, and then got shot in the stomach area which could have unfortunately killed the baby as well as Sun. They were not married but seeing each other and had to keep it a secret from her father, unlike before. 

We have also had a number of Losties meeting each other since the season began...

Locke, Ben, and Leslie Artze  Locke, Ben, Alex, and Artze 
Locke, Hurley, and Rose
Jack and Dogen
Sawyer, Kate, and Miles, Sawyer, Miles, and Charlotte 
Sayid, Sun, Jin, Keamy, and Mikhail
Claire and Kate 

If the flash sideways ended up being an "Epilogue" (as mentioned in a post a few pages back which at the time I completely disagreed with, sorry, maybe now it's a bit more plausible) Then it looks like Jacob may have one again, but, this could all be leading up to the two timelines connecting and the final battle coming which would kill the epilogue theory again. Is there another pocket of energy that has not been used? Widmore's recruit with the map asking Jin about the locations of energy pockets. Maybe someone has to set off another electromagnetic pulse bomb that would send the two timelines to a connecting point. I still don't understand why the #316 group were split with one side going to 1977 and the other to 2007. What brought those timelines together... a freakin' energy release along with a hydrogen bomb... 

I'm stopping with that but will leave you with this...

Why does Locke need candidates to leave?

Didn't It sound like Keamy said the word Island while duct taping Jin's hands?

After Jin shot the Russian guy, I paused the scene and couldn't help but notice that he was shot/hurt in the eye. Remember that previously he was shown in the series with an eye patch?

rofl yeah. i only realized, it was mikhail, after he was shot in the eye...

maybe locke needs all candidates dead, to leave the island. remember when he said at the end of ab aeterno to jacob "then i'll kill them too", after jacob said that somebody will take his place... and he wants them all together to kill them and be sure that nobody of them is alive...

I burst out laughing when Sawyer told Flocke to just turn into Smokey and fly over to the Hydra island. Then his response of "Well that would just be rediculous" after Flocke told him he couldn't. I think the writers were having a little fun with the viewers having so many questions about stuff on the show right there.