I knew my vocals in A Nighmare To Remember would surely spark some controversy...looks like I was right!  
 
As The Count Of Tuscany once said:
"wait a minute man....that's not how it is...let me please explain!"
 
1. The original melody that JP had to this section I felt did not work with the music. This section of the song has a really heavy, driving Judas Priest/King Diamond vibe musically...and JP had a melody that was more melodic and James' high voice I felt REALLY softened up the music to this very important dramatic section of the song.
 
(mp3 not available for this example)
 
 
2. I really kept hearing a Mikael Akerfeldt type Opeth death growl (yes, cookie monster vocals - sorry Setlist Scotty!) Like em or hate em, the section was really calling for it to my ears (listen to the instrumental version and you'll hear what I mean...)
The thought crossed my mind to ask Mikael himself to do it, but then I figured I'd end up having to do it live every night on tour, so it might as well be me on the CD....
 
So I gave it my best shot and here's what it was:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3
 
In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow...
 
 
3. So I agreed to try adding James doing a bit of a "counterpoint" to my cookie monster version to possible help soften the blow and add a little melody to the part....so here's what it sounded like:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR MP & JLB.mp3
 
I did not dig this approach as
a) James' clean vocals were still softening up the music to me
b) the counterpoint approach made it all too confusing and distracted from the drive of the music
 
 
4. So John and I went back to the idea of keeping my vocals for the section to keep it heavy and driving, but getting rid of the Opeth cookie monster approach and going for a more Robb Flynn/Machine Head approach instead (kind of like my "Constant Motion" voice)
 
In the end, that is what we went with:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20Final.mp3
 
I did indeed know that no matter what, we wouldn't please everybody with the idea, but I really felt a "heavy" approach was needed to keep the heaviness of the section (and hey...look at Roger Waters, Wayne Coyne, Neil Young, Dave Mustaine, Jeff Tweety, James Hetfield, etc etc. the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )
 
I know my voice my not be everybody's cup of tea (especially the heavy side), but sometimes
a contrast to James' cleaner vocals are needed with some of the heavy riffs and I believe "character" or "personality" in a voice is just as important in music and the expression of your art, it's not always about virtuoso, operatic range...
 
Ultimately, if you really are bothered by em then I suppose you can at least thank me for making the instrumental mixes and isolated stems available!

 
MP
 
 
PS - On a side note as this thread is really aimed to clear up my side of the street amongst the bashers: I must say the amount of hatred and negativity towards me on other DT "fan" sites is truly incredible (you know who you are)...my skin is not as thick as you may think!
 
It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...
 
Please feel free to post this on those sites as well...
 
 

If there is any musician that deserves nothing but respect it is YOU!

You know I think I like the cookie monster vocals the best. Seriously. For some reason, that was great. For me I was surprised by that section, but hey it's not my song, it's your song and unfortunately it's hard to convince other people of that it seems. I bet if Jackson Pollock decided to do a van Gogh-ish self portrait he'd get dumped on as well. In the end, it may matter what we think a little, but it's still "your" work and damn must I say, it's a great song even if for 30 seconds I'm surprised.

"Bob Hope said freeze and I got numb"

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I feel bad that you have to defend yourself, Your Album is your music, it's want you want us to hear, not what we want you to write, I want to hear your ideas.

Be happy knowing that the amount of "slammers" is Negligable compared to those who have the utmost respect for what you do in DT and other projects. 

Portnoy


The thought crossed my mind to ask Mikael himself to do it, but then I figured I'd end up having to do it live every night on tour, so it might as well be me on the CD....

But you can get him to do it at the PN09 Euro shows!

Graham Borland | web | blog | myspace

I don't know if this is gets taken as just mindless bashing or not, but I honestly don't think that people are that much against growling itself or how you growl but rather when to growl. I was quite dumbstruck by the timing of the growling myself, song having somewhat dark lyrics to begin with, yet turning lighter all the time, and then when the story continues and you hear the happy outcome that everyone survives sung in what can't be taken as anything other than angry vocals, followed by a growl... It just makes you (or me in this case) go wtf?

As for the growling itself, I didn't think it was that bad, and based on those samples the one on the album is the best compromise striclty musically speaking, yet the lyrics make it a complete non fit. Just my honest opinion, with no bashing intended.

James could have handled it easily as he did with The Shattered Frotress, The Glass Prison and A Nightmare to Remember, Stargazer, War Inside My Head.

LOOK IN THE MIRRORRAGH!

To me the growling section is out of place, not fitting to the heavy background and especially not fitting with the lyrics. My $0.02

last.fm 

well personally i would have kept the first version (Akerfeldt vocals), it's the best sounding one, but yeah the final cut is a good compromise.

But oh man it would be hard to have to think about how the fans will react EACH time you want to try something new or out of the DT "usual" path. I wouldnt be in your pants man

Thanks for sharing those cuts, it's very cool to hear some stories behind the process of creation !

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To me, the final vocals fit perfectly!!
Hey Mike, you rock! 
See you soon at PN09!!!

I personally love them Mike. Had a big grin upon my first listen, and still do on every listen!

I think you definately went with the right choice for the album in regards to your singing. It RULES! Cant wait to see it live

MP: Do you guys know how long it took to find a gravestone with the name Victoria Page, and the dates 1905-1928 on it?! Took us months!

im not a big fan of the growling stuff, but it fit perfectly in antr, and MP hit it to a the T.  

It's a great song the way it is.  It would be a great song with the "cookie monster" vocals.  Who cares either way?  I'm just thrilled that you guys are still together after all these years pumping out one great release after another.

You shouldn't need to 'explain' your art or justify it. I'm bummed that the pressure got to the point where you felt an
obligation to make this post. You've always stuck to your guns and I hope you continue to do so.
 
It bums me out that there were so many cutting remarks by so many people. I knew it had to cut a little too deep.
 
 
Keep on keepin' on Mike. That's all you can do.

That's cookie vocals sounded great, and would've sounded even better when everything was mixed properly too.

Thanks for posting this Mike. It does suck that you have to defend yourself, but once again, thank you for taking the time to respond to fans.

Class act.

"Guys, I think I'm gunna change my look." - John Myung, 2004.
STILL NO CHANGE.

After listening to the other versions, I think the compromise version (the album version) is the best.

Cookie monster is too much, but the one with James is way too confusing.

"Xabi Alonso... Hamann... Hit by Smicer... IT'S IN! Vladimir Smicer! Two goals in two minutes for Liverpool! MIRACLES ARE POSSIBLE."

I dig your vocals, Mike! They fit the song really well, and have some great character to em. I admire your integrity over this, anyway. It's your album, after all...

Drink More Tea!

Mike, it's astonishing the lengths to which you go to please your fanbase and the extent to which some of those fans don't seem to appreciate it.  I think it's kind of sad that you feel the need to explain or defend yourself.  Personally, I think you have the right to express yourself in any way you deem fit. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I used to think that a message board was a good place to get together with like-minded people and discuss your favorite band, sports team, movies, etc.  Now, though, sometimes it feels like the internet is populated almost entirely by hypercritical, nitpicky know-it-alls who find fault with anything creative.  These people seem to derive no end of pleasure by ripping apart any and everything.  And woe unto those who actually enjoy something, as they will be maligned and scorned as mindless fanboys who know nothing and are but sheep.  As if actually gleaning enjoyment from a band and then hanging out on their message board were embarrassing or something.

You need not defend your artistic decisions, sir.  As far as I'm concerned, you have earned the right to do what you want and IMO your musical judgment was spot on, as I believe BC&SL to be an amazing effort that challenges Awake as my favorite DT release ever.

Thanks from an unabashed fan. 

 

Mike,

You have the same problem that I do. We're too nice. We get offended by people to easily. I think in this aspect you should take the Mikael Akerfeldt approach on his forums. He basically just tells to those "holier than thou" fans to go "F" themselves.

I know it's hard to do, because I've tried to be that way too haha. But hey, it'd make you more of a badass and match that "look" that you have.

Anyway, that's my opinion. ;-)

~Kyle

So, since I can't figure out how to get my lovely gif to work here, here is the link to my band's myspace page.
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I definitely agree with the decision there.  Having the more agressive vox is a nice change, but that full on growl would have been too much.

This is why I have so much respect for Portnoy. I don't know of any other artist would post such an in depth response just to please his fans. I am curious as to what other "fan" sites he is referring to.  Not that any one in DT deserves to be bashed, but of the five guys Portnoy deserves it the least. It's fine to post your opinion on DT music, but if you bash Portnoy you are not a DT fan & really have no buisness posting on any DT site. 
 
Personally, I like that vocal section & felt that it did fit the lyrics & part of the song.  It was something that DT has never done & I like the fact that they are trying new things. Hearing that he considered having Mikael do the vocals got me excited, but I'm glad that he ended doing them. It would be cool to hear Mikael sing them live though.

Thanks again for everything that you do for us fans and the kick ass new album Mike!

Vegetables and I have a great understanding. I eat them and they come out my asshole a little while later.

-Frank Zappa

I'd love to have heard the original melody to compare.
I have no problem with that vocal section, although I'm not a fan of spoken vocals (that goes for any band, not just MP or DT), so my only problem with that section stems from that rather than anything to do with MP.
I actually thought MP did a pretty good job on the cookie monster vocals though. The oldschool folk may have complained, but I quite enjoyed it.
Thank you Mike for taking the time (heh) to justify the decision, even though you don't owe anyone an explanation. Very cool of you to share those early versions too!

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As awesome as I think BC&SL is, after lots of listens I still haven't been able to get into the first couple of songs.

That being said, I never had a problem with any of MP's vocals on the album.

Keep up the good work MP.

I really like the full blown growling. You should tell John to man-up!

Curtis with a K | A.M.P | Celladon 
"Indecision is fatal. It is better to make a wrong decision than build up a habit of indecision."

I guess people with negative feedback are more likely to voice their opinion than those who are satisfied. I suppose its my responsibility as a fan to redress the balance a bit. Maybe those people who think they can do better should record their takes over the instrumental version? 
It's great to hear the different stages of the creative process too. I was just listening to the making of SFAM the other day and was wondering if we'd ever get a peek behind the scenes of BC&SL. I guess we just did.

    i just hope MP knows that there are so many more fans out there that truly appreciate all he does than there are fans who bash him.  unfortunately, the negative voices always seem to speak louder than the positive ones.  for example, there seemed to be quite a bit of negativity towards AROP when it came out.  but when you looked at the forum's poll, the vast majority loved the song.  those negative voices just spoke louder than the positive ones.  i'm sure it's the same way with people who have criticized this section of ANTR and BC&SL in general.  the majority of DT fans love the album, and personally, i think ANTR is an awesome, awesome song!  it can't be easy to read or hear people slam your work.  artists have said that their songs are almost like children to them, so it must hurt quite a bit to see how ruthless some people can be in their criticism.  people frequently cross the line when it comes to this, forgetting that they are talking about actual people with feelings.
    in the end, it's all about the artists' vision and ear for what he/she thinks is appropriate for THEIR music.  and personally, thanks MP for releasing an honest, excellent album that i'm sure hundreds of thousands of DT fans will be listening to for years to come.  we appreciate you, your hard work, and of course, your unwavering commitment to bring the DT fans the best DT and MP that you can possibly bring.  thanks again. 

Kool, I like the way it turned out Reminds me of the call and response section of Glass Prison between MP, JP and JLB.

In the end Mike, it should be about what makes you and the rest of the guys happy.

You are a class act just for the way you treat the fans, something that has no paralel compared to bands of similar size (in fan base) as DT. So, sometimes... you can really forget about us and what makes us happy, and allow yourself to be selfish, specially with your art.

Haven't been a fan of the band's newer work, but I'll give you guys the nod for in large making me and my music tastes what they are now, that's something not even my currently favorite bands can or will accomplish.

So cheers! and have fun on the tour!

Check out part of my band's music at: http://www.myspace.com/synesthesiadr

WARNING! reading this users posts may cause falling in loveness with him.

Interesting insight to the creative process

I like the album version and could have lived with the cookie monster

the counterpoint version is indeed confusing

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Leeroy455


I personally love them Mike. Had a big grin upon my first listen, and still do on every listen!

I think you definately went with the right choice for the album in regards to your singing. It RULES! Cant wait to see it live

same here, it totally works with the music. 
and as a fan, I want to hear what the band comes up with. a band should not only focus on the expectations of the fans. 
dont't worry MP, you're doing it right! 

Borlag

I don't know if this is gets taken as just mindless bashing or not, but I honestly don't think that people are that much against growling itself or how you growl but rather when to growl. I was quite dumbstruck by the timing of the growling myself, song having somewhat dark lyrics to begin with, yet turning lighter all the time, and then when the story continues and you hear the happy outcome that everyone survives sung in what can't be taken as anything other than angry vocals, followed by a growl... It just makes you (or me in this case) go wtf?

As for the growling itself, I didn't think it was that bad, and based on those samples the one on the album is the best compromise striclty musically speaking, yet the lyrics make it a complete non fit. Just my honest opinion, with no bashing intended.

I could not agree more.
 
In DT the music is coming first, and then they write the lyrics.
In this particular section of the song, the lyrics are decribing that everything went well so why should the music and the vocal's being soooooo agressive
Maybe John was not that happy since everyone survived
 
Anyway I still thing the new album is the best since SFAM and I LOVE ANTR in patrticular the "Beautiful Agony" section.
 
Mike you will always be our hero and the most fan oriented successful musician I'm aware of
 
Two days ago in Gelsenkirchen/Germany, a guy next to me was wondering why you are so friendly waving several times to the people at the other side of the river/water cannel, given that they did not pay a cent to watch/listen to you guys.
 
That's a good example about the MP differentiation factor

i think it's good what you are doing to the song mike!

i do feel sorry for you, simply because i had exactly the same thoughts on that issue already prior your post, it felt almost like i knew you in some way

i think the initial growling version is also not bad, as a progressive musician it's only appropriate to keep all musical doors open!

keep up your brilliant work!

linda

So you're basically saying it's all JP's fault, eh, Mike?

I can't listen to these mp3s right now, but I think it's cool that you face the criticism openly. And I agree that the section called for really aggressive vocals.

For me the problem here is less your actual performance and more how the final bit of the lyrics ("... everyone survived") doesn't fit the context. The discrepancy between the positive message at the end and the aggressive music and the harsh vocals with the following "growl" is quite striking.

The growl was so much better. I think it would've rocked with mikael akerfeldt on that part.

Portnoy


I knew my vocals in A Nighmare To Remember would surely spark some controversy...looks like I was right!  
 
As The Count Of Tuscany once said:
"wait a minute man....that's not how it is...let me please explain!"
 
1. The original melody that JP had to this section I felt did not work with the music. This section of the song has a really heavy, driving Judas Priest/King Diamond vibe musically...and JP had a melody that was more melodic and James' high voice I felt REALLY softened up the music to this very important dramatic section of the song.
 
(mp3 not available for this example)
 
 
2. I really kept hearing a Mikael Akerfeldt type Opeth death growl (yes, cookie monster vocals - sorry Setlist Scotty!) Like em or hate em, the section was really calling for it to my ears (listen to the instrumental version and you'll hear what I mean...)
The thought crossed my mind to ask Mikael himself to do it, but then I figured I'd end up having to do it live every night on tour, so it might as well be me on the CD....
 
So I gave it my best shot and here's what it was:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3
 
In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow...
 
 
3. So I agreed to try adding James doing a bit of a "counterpoint" to my cookie monster version to possible help soften the blow and add a little melody to the part....so here's what it sounded like:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR MP & JLB.mp3
 
I did not dig this approach as
a) James' clean vocals were still softening up the music to me
b) the counterpoint approach made it all too confusing and distracted from the drive of the music
 
 
4. So John and I went back to the idea of keeping my vocals for the section to keep it heavy and driving, but getting rid of the Opeth cookie monster approach and going for a more Robb Flynn/Machine Head approach instead (kind of like my "Constant Motion" voice)
 
In the end, that is what we went with:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20Final.mp3
 
I did indeed know that no matter what, we wouldn't please everybody with the idea, but I really felt a "heavy" approach was needed to keep the heaviness of the section (and hey...look at Roger Waters, Wayne Coyne, Neil Young, Dave Mustaine, Jeff Tweety, James Hetfield, etc etc. the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )
 
I know my voice my not be everybody's cup of tea (especially the heavy side), but sometimes
a contrast to James' cleaner vocals are needed with some of the heavy riffs and I believe "character" or "personality" in a voice is just as important in music and the expression of your art, it's not always about virtuoso, operatic range...
 
Ultimately, if you really are bothered by em then I suppose you can at least thank me for making the instrumental mixes and isolated stems available!

 
MP
 
 
PS - On a side note as this thread is really aimed to clear up my side of the street amongst the bashers: I must say the amount of hatred and negativity towards me on other DT "fan" sites is truly incredible (you know who you are)...my skin is not as thick as you may think!
 
It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...
 
Please feel free to post this on those sites as well...
 
 

HOLY F**K!!!!! What other musician (ESPECIALLY of Mike's stature) would do this? THIS is EXACTLY why YOU R THE MAN MP!
 
I HAVE to say, that as great as this is (the post), it is ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARRY. Your work is YOUR ART! You do the best you can, you put it out there and then it's left to the masses to like or not. Honestly, I personally, don't like the cookie monster sound at all and would have preferred another design for that part of the song, BUT, it is what it is. I like it or not. For "fans" to bash your decision and vocals on your own web site (or other DT sites) makes no sense to me. People can state their opinions, but sometimes things go wayyyyyy too far. For you to have to post a thread on here defending yourself and your decision, makes me feel very po'd! You do 100X's more than most. Do NOT let this get to you.
 
Thanks for everything.

The way it ended up on the cd was easily the best choice between the three. I agree the growls would not have worked, but they would be cool for Mikael for do for a live show! The second take was just too confusing as you said, and the third take was just enough to keep the feel of the song.

And I embrace bereavement, Everything beloved is shattered anyway. I would devote myself to anyone, I would accept any flaws - Akerfeldt

I love the Growl and A Nightmare To Remember is my favorite song on this album.

Mike,

I loved this post for getting a glimpse into the working process of a song.  I find that sort of thing so interesting.  Thanks for putting the time into it and gathering the MP3s and stuff!

As far as bashers go, while there are some that are mean-spirited, I think you get the critiques because the fans love you!  I don't post it here too much, but my best friend and I will pretty heavily critique and dissect your albums... but its because we care and LOOOOOOOVE the music.  There's so much going on in any DT song, that there's a lot there to discuss and banter about.  If these discussions were open on this message board, I'm sure the flame wars would start and things would get taken out of context and it would sound really mean.  But it in no way diminishes our love for Dream Theater or respect for each of its members.

Also, its your own darn fault for making the bestest music ever and giving us all impossibly high standards =D

Keep it up!

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Thanks for the explanation, Mike.  It really wasn't necessary, but it is yet another reminder of just how incredibly good you are to your fans.

Couple of things.

The end version is BY FAR the best. You're great but you're no growler MP =P

I don't totally get why you've bothered coming out though mate. You're very fan driven and as you say you knew it would be controversial. So why get worked up about something you did that you knew as well as anybody else many people wouldn't like? If you were bothered you shouldn't have put it in, and since you did I have to assume that you're happy with it and that you're happier with the song than you are sad at the flak. So some people don't like your vox. TBH sometimes I don't like your vox, I wish you would just let James do it but I'm a fan, not a member, and I'm not going to stop listening or start flaming just because you like to get involved in a different side of the music which I can totally understand you wanting to do.

I really liked that particular section more as a kind of tribute to the 80's thrash kind of thing, I thought that was what you were going for, a sort of angry, snarly but not shouty growly delivery. It sounded like a call out to another kind of influence to DT and I thought it was cool.