The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember"

lukebuckland


I feel bad that you have to defend yourself, Your Album is your music, it's want you want us to hear, not what we want you to write, I want to hear your ideas.

That, plus many of us who DO like what you did there, among many other areas in the new album, don't say anything in the "hate" threads.

I absolutely loved that part of the song, and got so pumped hearing it, especially the ending growl, but overall, people have to understand that bands need to evolve and try out new ideas.

it's good that you guys can still compromise as a band after so many years!

I agree with MP.  between the drums, guitars, and keyboards, it does sound like it's more from norway.

KirksNoseHair

TrueSagan


I don't know how to make it sound polite. I am a huge fan of this band, as I have grown up with it and I am very nostalgic about their whole career. It's just the music nearest to my heart like Pink Floyd may have been to my parents or others from that generation, but that part is just bad, and it doesn't matter what went into it or where it came from. The fact that most people on other sites have voiced their hate of it only means that people are afraid of voicing their opinion here.

They made a mistake. Everyone can live with it, it's not that big a deal, but I've already removed it from my version.

Maybe they'll learn from it and bring in a producer next album. This would never have happened with a producer to say if something is good or not, and producers have never gone wrong until they were phased out by Mike. Bring 'em back!

Dude, do you have even one, single shred of class or common decency?  You are all over this board, in practically every thread, multiple times, criticizing, over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again. 

We get it, trust me.  We all get it, you don't like the album.  Can you please stop now? 

Get some class.  Some tact.  Some common sense. 

Man, enough is enough already.

I second and third that!

I think you don't need to explain nothing to anyone, 'cause is your music you do what you want with it, plus don't loose time reading shity forums, those are people who got nothing to do but criticize. I bet if some of the people who insult your growls had the chance to meet you, they would say "OH MIKE YOU ARE MY HERO YOUR VOICE ROOOCKS!!!" and shit like that. That bothers me too, 'cause they believe themselves hardocre Dream Theater fans and they are nothing more opposite from that.

Mike,

I'd like to give my .02 here. Personally, I will admit I am not a fan of the cookie-monster vocals and quite frankly I don't enjoy that part of the song AT ALL... however, I respect if that's the artistic vision you had for the song, and I wouldn't sit here and bash you for it... that being said, I want you to think about something. I understand what you mean when you say the bashing hurts sometimes and that your skin isn't as thick as we'd like to think it is... but consider this- I don't think random people who are not fans of yours are coming on here and bashing you because they have nothing better to do; to the contrary, I think their passion for DT and how you represent the band is in fact on such a high pedestal that anything you do that is viewed as less than perfect in their eyes (much less something they genuinely dislike) is going to bring about a strong reaction. There's an old theory that says that it's actually a compliment of sorts when someone appears to hate something that much. Also, I would be willing to bet that the same people who are bashing you are also the same people who have supported your career for years; have bought all your albums, DVDs, merchandise, gone to your shows, etc., and have in essence contributed to the personal financial success I'm sure you've achieved at this point in your career. Your kids' college tuition (if they choose to go) will probably be covered due to the support of all of your fans through the years- and yes, EVEN the ones who bash you from time to time.. so while nobody likes criticism and at times it should be handled more constructively and less spitefully, you really should have the last laugh because most of these same people have supported your career for years...

MP you are the man! u care so much about ur fans and we love u!  I think u guys went with the best decision for your vocals.

Mike don't let the Fake fans get to you

the true fans will always stand by your band (unless your metallica)

just keep making music how you want to because it is when music is the best

RAWR!

I liked the METAL vox.  Go on with your bad self, MP!  We fans love what you do for us, and appreciate the time and effort you and DT put into giving us a ridiculously mind-blowing album.  Don't listen to the haters...they need to get on a time machine and go back to 1994!

I actually really liked the cookie monster version.  You should do it live sometime!

what the fuck has the forum turned in to?!

don't people know that opinions are opinions, but for fucks sake when you're on the guys site bashing him about one little bit in a song?!

Dream Theater is a band which has a career which has spanned over 10 albums, and on each album they have REDEFINED their sound, so people bashing saying it 'doesn't fit in with DT' need to open their eyes, it clearly does, that's what progressive music is all about and what it set out to be, to be different!

just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is shit, have a bit more of an open mind

DimebagForever

the true fans will always stand by your band (unless your metallica)

 


Mr Jombo north of this post has a point!

Portnoy



 
MP
 
 
PS - On a side note as this thread is really aimed to clear up my side of the street amongst the bashers: I must say the amount of hatred and negativity towards me on other DT "fan" sites is truly incredible (you know who you are)...my skin is not as thick as you may think!
 
It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...
 
Please feel free to post this on those sites as well...
 
 

Mike, I don't understand why people waste their time in trying to bash you and the band.
I honestly think it comes down to gaining attention from other fans to defend you, and to be recognized by you yourself.
Its as if a reaction in any way is a success on the Internet for these people.

I appreciate you sharing some of the production methods with us and being as personally open as you can be with your fans.
The haters will hate on forever because they are missing something in their lives so they want to bring others down with them, and when it comes to "celebrity" its almost like an ultimate victory for these people.

I dug the vocals, and would love to see some collaborations in the future (guest spots like Mikael, etc.) But all in all we have very little to complain about as fans because Dream Theater is an extremely hard working band from what I gather, and you always feed us something new to listen to. THANK YOU! Looking forward to the show in Miami too.

I agree that James probably wouldn't have worked for that section.  Personally I think your growls (pretty impressive for a first time!) worked better, but I do listen to a lot of death metal, so that's just me.  I'm not the biggest fan of what ended up on the record (although it is growing on me), but I'm not going to go into rage mode and complain like a little bitch about everything and say you are ruining the band.  Seriously, you've given us all so much, just because I might not like an idea you had I'm not gonna flip and say you ruin the band or other stuff like that I've seen.  

At the end of the day Mike, just tell them to eat your ass and balls!

Everyone has the right for their own opinions, but i think some people just seem to take this music too seriously...
I see a lot of irony in the MP's vocal section (and in the whole song too) and it really made me smile the first time i heard it... that certain silliness fits the part perfectly

HOLY F**K!!!!! What other musician (ESPECIALLY of Mike's stature) would do this? THIS is EXACTLY why YOU R THE MAN MP! I HAVE to say, that as great as this is (the post), it is ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARRY. Your work is YOUR ART! You do the best you can, you put it out there and then it's left to the masses to like or not. Honestly, I personally, don't like the cookie monster sound at all and would have preferred another design for that part of the song, BUT, it is what it is. I like it or not. For "fans" to bash your decision and vocals on your own web site (or other DT sites) makes no sense to me. People can state their opinions, but sometimes things go wayyyyyy too far. For you to have to post a thread on here defending yourself and your decision, makes me feel very po'd! You do 100X's more than most. Do NOT let this get to you. Thanks for everything.

I was thinking this same thing exactly.  I am a huge JLB fan and if it were up to me I'd have him sing all the parts on the album.  But, I am just a fan!, Mike is the artist following his artistic vision.  One of the main reasons I love this band is because they stay true to themselves and present the music as they think it should be presented.  If you try to please the fans instead of following your vision the end product will be watered down and uninspired, and the fans will pick up on it.

Just as an aside, the first time I heard Honor they Father and This Dying Soul on ToT I wasn't sure I dug those songs (although I immediately loved the rest of the album)  Once I saw those songs performed live, I "got it" and now those are two of my favorite live songs.

Stay true to yourself and the band.  You can't please everyone.  Also what other band who has been around as long as DT are still making current, relevant music and are not performing merely as a "legacy act".  You can't achieve that feat without pushing the boundries and pissing off a few "fans" along the way.

DTFan93


Mike,

I'd like to give my .02 here. Personally, I will admit I am not a fan of the cookie-monster vocals and quite frankly I don't enjoy that part of the song AT ALL... however, I respect if that's the artistic vision you had for the song, and I wouldn't sit here and bash you for it... that being said, I want you to think about something. I understand what you mean when you say the bashing hurts sometimes and that your skin isn't as thick as we'd like to think it is... but consider this- I don't think random people who are not fans of yours are coming on here and bashing you because they have nothing better to do; to the contrary, I think their passion for DT and how you represent the band is in fact on such a high pedestal that anything you do that is viewed as less than perfect in their eyes (much less something they genuinely dislike) is going to bring about a strong reaction. There's an old theory that says that it's actually a compliment of sorts when someone appears to hate something that much. Also, I would be willing to bet that the same people who are bashing you are also the same people who have supported your career for years; have bought all your albums, DVDs, merchandise, gone to your shows, etc., and have in essence contributed to the personal financial success I'm sure you've achieved at this point in your career. Your kids' college tuition (if they choose to go) will probably be covered due to the support of all of your fans through the years- and yes, EVEN the ones who bash you from time to time.. so while nobody likes criticism and at times it should be handled more constructively and less spitefully, you really should have the last laugh because most of these same people have supported your career for years...

Amen to this. We humans are like this. We need the ups and downs, and we create them to make a reality for ourselves. If you support a band intensely, you will dig deep into anything and create ups and downs for the sake of it. Its like watching a soap.

Mike,

Take this from a person who got into the band at the time you and John first began producing for DT. I believe you and John are INCREDIBLE producers and you are doing an amazing job with each successive album. Black Clouds And Silver Linings is better than Systematic Chaos, and Systematic Chaos was better than Octavarium, and etc...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE MAKING YOUR MUSIC. I dont understand why people are SO stuck on bringing back an outside producer. I feel that the "Jordan era" of DT is BY FAR the best. Like you have said yourself on several recent interviews, "IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT". I agree with you 100%. If people don't like the way you two are doing something, then they should stay out of here. (That is my OPINION, don't kill me for it.) You guys are THE best band on the planet, and you have given me inspiration through many of your songs to do thing I would never have done otherwise. I wish you all the best in making music in the future, and I hope to hear many new records from DT in the future.

Long Live Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, James LaBrie, John Myung, and Jordan Rudess.

Long Live Dream Theater.

I'm behind DT no matter what direction they choose to go in. It's actually because of DT that I got into and was able to accept growling in music. They introduced me to a whole side of music I had never encountered before. Some of it was lighter stuff like Rush, Pink Floyd, and Yes, while some of it was significantly darker like Opeth, Tool, and BTBAM. You should never have to defend your decisions, as there will always be tons of fans like me and the majority of people on this board who will never stop loving your music. 

The bottom line is to do whatever you think is right for your music, and don't let what some snobby wannabe fan says bother you in the slightest. Keep kicking ass MP (and DT)!!!!!

Without really getting into the vocals aspect I want to congratulate you on an excellent cd. This song kicks ass as does the entire album. I am not a drummer but I think this is your best album when it comes to the drums, awesome sound and just overall some seriously awesome shit. I really like the direction of the new album and hoping to see most of it (especially The Count) live a few months from now in San Jose.
 
My only disappointment with the cd is no damn Rush on the Covers. Natural Science with DT's heavyness would be so awesome, as would 50 or more other ones.  Anyways, thanks again for an awesome album.

Honestly, Mike should have went with what he wanted in the song, or what the band felt was good, and never should have considered whether the fans would like it or not. That's why DT are the artists and we're not.  They're a progressive band, too. They're supposed to go in interesting and new directions. But, you've gotta have thick skin when you do that. That's why Akerfeldt can do it (as someone said earlier, he just says F* the naysayers). 

I hope the band's learned something from this, too. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. No matter what you put on an album someone's going to have a problem with it somewhere, so just do what you think makes for a kickass song.

I think the reason you get a little more bashing than the other members is because you are GOD to most people.  so when they see something they don't like, they lose it.  I personally think that the vocals fit the mood of the song, and if it was James, it wouldn't be heavy enough.  While I usually don't like growls, i don't mind them on here.

tombojombo


what the fuck has the forum turned in to?!

don't people know that opinions are opinions, but for fucks sake when you're on the guys site bashing him about one little bit in a song?!

Dream Theater is a band which has a career which has spanned over 10 albums, and on each album they have REDEFINED their sound, so people bashing saying it 'doesn't fit in with DT' need to open their eyes, it clearly does, that's what progressive music is all about and what it set out to be, to be different!

just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is shit, have a bit more of an open mind

Even though I've already said my piece... let me say...
+1. I'm STILL pissed about this. Especially at TrueSagan or whatever the fuck his name is.

You sure did Great Mike.
I really love your vocals on ANTR, & it's one of my favorite moments on BC&SL.
Good job. \m/\m/
I hope you don't leave this style behind & use it on next albums too. \M/

Well well well. I thought I'd mosey back over here after a long break (was avoiding album spoilers).

Anyway, as a few others have said, the problem with the vocals is the ridiculous divide between the lyrics and music. Why roar and scream when everyone's ok?

The counter-argument is that DT is about the music, so loud guitars + loud vocals make more sense than loud guitars + soft vocals, all lyrics aside.

But then again, they execute it so perfectly in TBOT ("and then came the call"). So it's a shame they couldnt do the same in ANTR.

Either way it doesn't ruin the song (although I love the 'peaceful sedation' part so much, nothing really could). Still the best album since SDOIT :)

Portnoy


(and hey...look at Roger Waters, Wayne Coyne, Neil Young, Dave Mustaine, Jeff Tweety, James Hetfield, etc etc. the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )

Missing Kevin Moore, huh? :P

That aside, thanks for the explanation. It's actually really cool to be able to read all that, good insight to the writing process.

I would have loved to hear Mikael doing it.

In the end, it's an experiment, and it's worth trying. Maybe it didn't sound so great, but in the words of Lars, "The minute you stop exploring, then just sit down and fucking die."

Granted, the album was surprising at some points, but you guys (you too, Mr. Portnoy), are musicians who have broken past a set standard in your music way before. I say, as a music enthusiast, to say the least, this album was completely different and in a good way. It's not one of the top 3 in your catalogue, but it beats many different albums out on the market, that's for sure. I appreciate your differing endeavors, Mr. Portnoy, as well as your bandmates.

My take on the matter is that every song, every aspect of each song is the artist's choice and as such I take into consideration the entirety of it. Of course there are a few spots on the album that, not really make me cringe but make me think that I might not have suggested it (in a negative way) but in the same light there are spots that I would not have suggested ideas because I just couldn't wrap my head around it!

As far as getting other people involved in the album as a guest appearance or whatever I have mixed feelings. On one hand (such as SFAM with the lady singing over JP's guitar solo) they enhance the music and totally push the music to another level. But on the other hand you either have to sample their voice or have a member of the band replicate it in concert. I agree with MP that if he'd have to do it in concert every night then he should just do it on the album.

As far as this topic is concerned, this section of ANTR is enhanced by some out of the box thinking by MP and JP (evidently more MP) and incorporating an aspect that we really don't see from the guys. I like the part and in the entirety of the song it is only one of the many attractive sections in it.

AJ
PS- This is my first post from Austin. Just moved a few weeks ago after training for my new job.

Mike, it never ceases to amaze me just how much of an effort DT as a band make to really connect with their fan-base and I applaud you and the rest of the guys for that.

Regarding the death vocals, I actually would've only liked the death vocals if they were done by Cannibal Corpse's own Corpsegrinder. Call me biased but nobody does a cookie monster vocal better. That said, the concept itself was excellent and I would've loved to have heard that in the mix (only if it were Corpsegrinder) but the Rob Flynn style certainly worked much better under the circumstances.

One thing to always remember though is that perception and taste are purely individual elements and they're not shared from person to person. It would be a pretty boring world if we all liked the same thing I reckon! So some people didn't like your vocal piece? Take a good look at how many of us actually do like it and you'll see that the bashers are quite outnumbered. I know how it feels to want to excel in your field and how great it feels to be praised for it as one of the many rewards but sometimes it's a good thing to take a few hard knocks just to keep you driven to do better and continue raising the bar as you always have. I guess what I'm trying to say Mike is, "F#$K 'em". Those who have criticised constructively have made a reasonable contribution but those who have just criticised without any regard for the musician's feelings simply do not understand the objective of the music in its subjective nature let alone the musician himself.

I only just got my producer's set two days ago and I've been having a lot of fun remixing in Nuendo and messing with various VST plugins including some nice reverbs I've been experimenting on with both JP and JLB's tracks.

More importantly, I've finally got me some playalong tracks ... not that I'm trying to have you replaced Mike. :D

Keep it up man! Hopefully if you guys do end up touring Australia again, it won't be until I'm back from working at the Winter Olympics in Canada (March 6 onwards). Otherwise, hopefully you tour Vancouver between November 29 and March 5!

I don't ask for much, do I? ;)

In addition to my earlier post I also can't believe that people seem to be seeing it as some kind of revelation that the discussion regarding the vocal was only between JP and MP.  Take a look at who is credited with producing the record and indeed every record since FII.  That's right, it's JP and MP.  I'm sure in the songwriting process everyone gets to have their own input but once it comes to recording the song then JP and MP make the decisions on how the song/album should sound so why would they be asking anyone else?

thank you Mike for sharing these 2 unreleased parts of this passage !
I'm not a big fan of growling and in the end i'm prefering the final vocal on the record, even if your growling is kind of cool !

I don't post much on here, but Mike, you definitely made the right choice for the song. You usually do, and it's really sad that people keep questioning your decisions. I think your vocals have really come a long way since the SFAM era, and are a part of what Dream Theater is today. If people don't like that, they can just keep listening to I&W and Awake.
I can see that the bashing is really starting to get to you, and I hope you don't let those people start changing the way you fell about/treat the majority of us who love and appreciate everything you do for us.

I actually never minded any time you sing, anyway. Really adds another dimension to the music! The trade-off in Constant Motion comes to mind.

scorpiondeux

Anyway, as a few others have said, the problem with the vocals is the ridiculous divide between the lyrics and music. Why roar and scream when everyone's ok?

I asked about the others
"Is everyone okay?"
He told me not to worry
As he turned and looked away

Not everyone's okay. They may have survived, but that doesn't make it a happy ending.. "No son should ever have to see his father such a mess", remember? The lyrics fit absolutely PERFECTLY in that context.

THANK YOU DefyingMortality!!!

Finally, somebody else on my page! (I did post this back on like page 4), but I cannot get over how many people are thinking this.

So nobody died? ... time to party! - hardly, I think...

K x

Sorry if I've missed this elsewhere, but what's James singing in the counterpoint version?  And I agree that it would've been too confusing...  I like the growl version the best, but I understand why they didn't go for it in the end.  Would be badass to see Akerfeldt do it in the European PN though.

Mike, there will always be people like that. They are not aware of the thing called respect. There are "fans" that don't know the difference between insulting and criticizing. You are one of the best musicians of all times, and Dream Theater is still very underrated. Of course every band or musician is criticizable, but as i said, there is a big difference between critisizing and insulting. I'm just a big fan of Dream Theater and progressive rock/metal, but i have to dare and give an advice: Never stop trying new things, trying new things and concepts is not a bad thing, actually that is the core of progressive music. And forget about the other "fans", they don't get the idea of art, music and appreciation.

Note: I agree with the others, A Nightmare to Remember -with The Count of Tuscany- is my favourite song on Black Clouds and Silver Linings.

LittleKezza


THANK YOU DefyingMortality!!!

Finally, somebody else on my page! (I did post this back on like page 4), but I cannot get over how many people are thinking this.

So nobody died? ... time to party! - hardly, I think...

K x

Not time to party, necessarily - but I simply disagree with the idea of the 'Silver Lining' moment of this song being sung in such a way. The story is very dark up to this point in the song, and there's no resolution or knowledge in sight - but then everything gets wrapped up with everyone surviving and he's... angry about it. It just doesn't quite ring true for me. 

I think The Count of Tuscany works better in this respect - all the vocal lines fit the story and sound great, especially in the last 4 minutes. And there's some of James' best whooaaaa-whoa-whoooas.

Mike Portnoy: 

You should read what a poster named rumborak posted here: http://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=2637.msg76676#msg76676 Not the part where he says you should stop reading these forums or just caring too much, but to actually listen objectively to your songs and see what fits in them or not. 

Maybe your original growling was good. I don't know. I'm not that into them in general so I can't judge. I thought DT's music wasn't about growling or that type of sound. I thought Dream Theater had their sound settled. You were the one who pointed out in Riding the Train of Thought: "You know, we never try to repeat ourselves. We try to have our sound and our style that we never stray from. We want to stay loyal and faithful to that. We want to always be heavy, progressive, and melodic. I know a lot of bands that get known for creating a certain sound or style and then after a few years they stray drastically and they really do that at the expense of their audience. We don't ever want to do that. We want to always, you know, have our style that we are faithful to and known for, but within that blueprint, we always want to go to a lot of different places." 

You stayed pretty well in that blueprint with Octavarium. Personally, I think you crossed the line with Systematic Chaos and songs like "The Dark Eternal Night". The music was catchy, don't misunderstand me. It's those vocals. It's the "we're not taking ourselves too seriously". Why start now? I mean, cool, have some fun singing about a Pharaoh. Have fun writing songs. Maybe the song was begging for those kind of vocals. Fine. You had your fun song. What a nice rare treat. Most fans that I know were some how skeptical with that sort of vocal approach. 

We, the fans, know that Dream Theater's sound is approaching new targets. You have a great label supporting and caring about you and you are becoming more popular. I don't have a problem with that. I endorse that. You say that you are having a great time at studio and that the band is closer than ever thanks to the fact that you don't have an outside producer. OK, I'll swallow my pride and live with it as long as you guys are happy. At the end of the day it is your music. But, if you want to be a good producer (yeah, I know, an anonymous fan on the internet is going to give me advice-shocker) you have to be more critical with your output. I heard your samples that you provided in your post and you clearly opted for the least worse of them, in my humble and ignorant opinion. None of those samples fitted with what the story was saying. Why not trying something different with the music so it can fit the lyrics? The rest of the song is just AMAZING. It's mind blowing. 

I know a lot of your fans do like that part and will pat your back with everything Dream Theater does. I respect their opinion as I respect the final song, I just don't agree with them. Because this part of a song raised this much controversy should give us an idea that maybe there is something that is not right with it. And you knowing that it will bring this much discussion... what else is there to say? Thank you for the stems. Honestly, thank you. It's really a great treat. If fans want to have fun remixing your music, that's really generous and cool coming from Dream Theater. You always think of great things for your fans. I really don't see think the intention of those stems was to remove that specific part in "A Nightmare to Remember". It was more to have fun with songs and do some creative things like this:

Removed : Downloadable remix (See sanctioned thread for remixes)

Having said that, I just can say that please revisit your words. Stay true to your bands sound which made you so unique and respected. Don't stray from it. You are the producer - as such be much more critical with the final out put. 

At the end of the day it's your music and your prerogative. I'll either way have fun listening to my favorite band. Have fun and enjoy your tour. Hope to see you soon next year and keep up with the good work.

Dude...no worries.  It's nice to know the story behind them, but no controversy or question marks here.  Do what you gotta do!  You da' man! Do what you want to do!  It's YOUR song!!