The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember"

TrueSagan

Don't worry, I won't return to this forum.

Fixed. 

If you focused on the profanity, then you probably didn't get my point.

And if you're offended by what i just posted, then you definitely didn't get my point at all.

But if someone tells me i live in a "politically correct world", after saying what an artist is allowed to do or not, and saying that a producer has the right to decide over a band about what is "good" or "bad", then i'm certainly putting no credibility in your words, and wish you a long and happy desillusional life! 

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again. DT's music and my taste have grown in different directions since I got into the band at the tender age of 15 (11 years ago!). These two clips are the first I've heard from the new album, so I won't judge the whole. Mike, make what you want to make. I personally don't have any interest in the death metal cookie monster style, but apparently a lot of other people do. Personally, I wish DT had gone a different direction in recent years, but I can find other things to listen to. In fact, I am really looking forward to Transatlantic.

Peace.

TrueSagan

Magical Man

TrueSagan

Epitaph04


^^^

They made a "mistake"? Wow dude...

Was the St. Anger snare a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Was the mixing on Vapour Trails a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Are the vocals on ANTR a mistake? As far as I can see on most forums, the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative with people making fun of it and parodying it left and right. I'd say it was a mistake.

And if what you're saying is going to make almost everyone laugh, could it be considered a mistake? Would that make it change your mind? What if you're deeply convinced in what you're saying, but everyone would find it laughable, would you be a good little lamb and shut the fuck up?

I hope you'd carry on telling people what you think respectfully, not trying to prove what is "good" or "bad", because there's no such thing in music. That's the beauty of it, and the whole fucking point.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, I didn't resort to any profanity in my posts, and neither should you.

Don't worry, I won't return to this thread, you guys can keep living in politically correct world.

You should return to this thread and explain why it's a mistake. Or do you seriously think that in music you can call the decisions of an artist a MISTAKE when some people yell about it on some silly little internet sites? Who the hell are the everyone you talk about? Your friends? ...My friends liked the snare on St. Anger so in my little head that should be the Truth, right? Oh and I sure can dig up some threads about that snare for example so I can prove my point how "EVERYONE" loved it. The truth is always much more complicated. Mistake sounds like it should have been something else... Well it is what it is and the only thing you can do is live with it.

Never say that an opinion is the truth.

I personally LOVE the way this part of the song sounds.  To me, it is the perfect fit for the music. 

TrueSagan

Epitaph04


^^^

They made a "mistake"? Wow dude...

Was the St. Anger snare a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Was the mixing on Vapour Trails a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Are the vocals on ANTR a mistake? As far as I can see on most forums, the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative with people making fun of it and parodying it left and right. I'd say it was a mistake.

Braaaaaavo...great theory dude

Mr. Portnoy:

I'm not sure if you (or anyone else, for that matter, at this point--6th page and all) will read this, but I have to at least try; needless to say, I hope you do.

I obviously don't know you personally, and I have only met you for a transitory moment at a signing in Toronto during SC tour (HMV). However, from what I, in my decidedly humble opinion, have seen, read, and heard of you over the years as a fan, I am both angered and ashamed of those who think it nothing to sit at a computer, behind the veil and safety of anonymity, and criticize, insult, and outright defamate the character and integrity of you and your craft.  Perhaps, it is the fact that you have been such an open, honest, and approachable celebrity. Perhaps, this magnanimity on your part (and, truly, that is exactly what I feel is it, you giving as much of yourself as you do, when you certainly are in no obligation to do so) has become a balywick of sorts for you, a kind of proverbial Cross you must bear now. I honestly do not know. All I know is that, far from embracing and applading this in someone so many of us consider not only an influence or idol musically, but also an inspiration as a human being, this cruel and coothless contingent of so-called "fans" seem to find respite and hermitage from their own obviously pathetic and talentless lives in their invariable (and, I might add, unimaginative and uninspired) negativity.

Every single time I read something these perrenial curmudgeons spew forth regarding you or DT in general, I am at once filled with a shame borne of my otherwise tangential association with them as a fan, as well as a profound sense of sadness for a you, simply by virtue of who you are and what you have come to represent to so many of us. 

I am neither what these idiots like to call a "fanboy" (what in God's Holy Name does that mean, anyway? When did being a devout follower of anything come to take on negative connotations?), nor am I overly impressed by celebrity and stardom in their own respective rights. It is the character of the man/woman behind the facade that transcends their claim to fame. You, sir, have every right, given your talent, longevity, and place in musical history, to be as big an asshole, as aloof and condescending, even as rude and downright ignorant, as, say, Billy Bob Thornton. But, you're not, and I, personally, would like to commend and thank you for that:

 I want to thank you for inspiring me to be a better musician; I want to thank you for showing me what true character is in a person (any person, irregardless of their station in life); I want to thank you for never giving up on the rest of us, when others in our variegated midst treat you with such shameful disrespect (on their behalf, since they lack both the manners and grace to do so, I apologize to you); I would like to thank you on behalf of the rest of us: all those that listen to your music, all those who respect the decisions you make both in your craft and in your life, all those that are along for this incredible journey with you through all the peaks and valleys, and all those who support you no matter what with the ineffible joy and pride that comes with being a true Dream Theater fan.

Thank you, Mr. Portnoy, to you personally, and to the rest of Dream Theater for honoring us all with your time, patience, and, above all, Music.

RF
Sarnia, Ontario, Canada

The song rocks, and regardless of whether or not you hate the passage, it's 30 seconds of a 70+ minute album, get over it.

Am I right in thinking this is the UAGM 'circus' break on Score all over again?

It's so stupid. I've never heard anyone (except prog 'fans') dislike a song for 30 seconds worth of music, what a pointless reason. 

^^^

People hated that part of UAGM on Score?

Epitaph04


^^^

People hated that part of UAGM on Score?

I seem to recall over on the DT board there was a mass outcry when someone obtained an audio stream of that song about a month before score was due out

Thanks for sharing Mike !
It really shows how you guys go through different decisions, etc.

For the record, I really like that part, and I think what you guys chose works best. 
For the record also, I think that the song goes for too long at the end, but that's completely different matter.

This is one of those threads that calls me out of my semi-retirement.

I agree with all the MP shouldnt have to defend himself posts. MP, you are part of the creative process in the music that DT makes, and honestly, if some people are like "omg teh v0x are n0t teh r0x0r wtflollerskates" then honestly, to hell with them. One thing I have always noticed with DT's fanbase is that we are among the most loyal and respectful fans ever, but there are also some people who, no matter what, will never be satisfied. (Never Enough, dare I say?)

In my humble opinion, MP, you need to actually sing alot more. You have a great voice and I hope on the next album you contribute more vocals. And yes, I enjoy the new album LOTS. I respect peoples opinion, and being in the US, I also respect someones right to free speece. But honestly, MP does alot more for the fans than alot of other musicians I know of. Constructive criticism is one thing, but bashing is just uncalled for. MP, I appreciate what you do and thank you for all the great music and stuff you have done for your fans.

Cosmo


This is one of those threads that calls me out of my semi-retirement.

I agree with all the MP shouldnt have to defend himself posts. MP, you are part of the creative process in the music that DT makes, and honestly, if some people are like "omg teh v0x are n0t teh r0x0r wtflollerskates" then honestly, to hell with them. One thing I have always noticed with DT's fanbase is that we are among the most loyal and respectful fans ever, but there are also some people who, no matter what, will never be satisfied. (Never Enough, dare I say?)

In my humble opinion, MP, you need to actually sing alot more. You have a great voice and I hope on the next album you contribute more vocals. And yes, I enjoy the new album LOTS. I respect peoples opinion, and being in the US, I also respect someones right to free speece. But honestly, MP does alot more for the fans than alot of other musicians I know of. Constructive criticism is one thing, but bashing is just uncalled for. MP, I appreciate what you do and thank you for all the great music and stuff you have done for your fans.

This x 100

Most of my favourite moments in DT songs are when you and JLB do vocal trade off's, like in Constant Motion, War Inside. and especially Glass Prison. I play guitar myself but I think my favourite part to DT songs are the vocals, they always follow nice rhythmical patterns, especially when, as I said both you and JLB have a duet-kind of thing going on

The first rule of being a fan of 'PROGRESSIVE' music: GOD FORBID THAT THE BAND IS ALLOWED TO ACTUALLY EVOLVE IN ANY WAY. It must never deviate in any way from what it did 20 years ago.

Seriously, sometimes I think we're talking about 'Conservative Rock'.

Are any other fans this annoying in this way? It sickens me. For this reason, my tenure on the DT forums was brief. I joined when SC came out, and stopped posting a couple of weeks later. The constant bashing and negativity were just too much. Not even just of SC. I can't remember seeing a lot of positive contributions or compliments to the band.

It's much, much cooler to dislike the music, to point out the supposed shortcomings, and to bitch about the band and its music, particularly if they don't produce droves of predictable albums. (and of course, if they pander to the fans, the fans will label them as bland and predictable)

Conservative Rock. Major facepalmage.

mike the the song is awsome,it has always been important to you to please the fans and as far as im concerned you have,at least this fan.you will never make everybody happy even as hard as you try,im just happy dream theater is doing what it has been doing for all these years.see you in jersey

Mike - I too am guilty of being, ahem, less than kind to this part of the song.   Having said that, the original growling version friggin RULES!!!!!  You were right on the money.  Seriously.
 
So props to you. 
 
And the next time you want to try and pull something like that off, tell JP to grow some hair on his nuts. 

First, I consider myself a progressive fan, not a heavy fan.  Give me changing and abnormal time signatures or give me death. 
 
It's YOUR song Mike.  It's my favorite on the album.   I personally loved the Nightmare on Elm Street-ish intro too. When I heard just that part for the first tiem I though, wow, this is going to be good!  I don't really get into the extremely heavy side of DT myself, but I thought you guys did a really great job of balancing the load for both your heavy and progressive fans alike.  IMHO the beautiful agony section was the best part of the album, but I love hearing how you guys come out of that and into the slightly growling section.
 
You know, perhaps you are seeing people bashing you online because when all is said and done, the majority of your fans are musicians who haven't made it. (maybe some of us have but that's besides my point)  We're all the creative type and we strive to perfom some of your music to the best of our ability.  Unlike the one hit wonders of the world, your music is different and constantly changes.   We've been down the long road with you guys and really feel like part of the band ourselves.  We envision ourselves playing up on that stage for crowds like you guys do, and as artistic a form as your music is, it's really easy to be judgemental. 
 
Everyone of your albums are different.  There are sections within songs that go off on tangents, you put so many ideas into songs, albums and concepts there's noway anyone can know whats coming next, love it or hate it. 
 
But thank you for giving us something different, ecclectic and exciting to dream to.

I will add that I really enjoy when Mike actually does sing.   I think he has a fine, unique voice, and wish he would develop it more.

Epitaph04


^^^

People hated that part of UAGM on Score?

I don't know about you, but I live for those moments during DTs live shows.  Who wants to hear it exactly the same way the album portrays it?  I love Jordan Ruddess' Old Movie sounding intro to Surrounded and how the band all comes in.  I also love the set changing tag thing at the end of Spirit Carries On on Live Scenes. 
 
When DT play the growling vocal part  of nightmare live, they should piss off all the nay sayers by stopping the music, right there and then come out and just have Mike Portnoy speak the part in a high pitched ball kicked, little girly voice.

Interesting little insight in the making of this album, although I think the context of a musician feeling he should come forward like this to justify his creative work because of some unfairly harsh criticism is pretty unfortunate.

(Personally, I liked the final version taking that part a bit into Robert Flynn territory, vocally.)

I can't agree more with the people who noting that they wouldn't be progressive if they never evolved at all. I personally love that mike considered adding something heavy like that to the song, and it's something I hope he looks to further experiment with on future albums. But based on all this talk surrounding it, it doesn't look like that will happen.

I want to know what was ever so groundbreaking about any DT album that talk of them not having PROGRESSED is justified. Progressive metal? Nope... was done before DT. Melodic nature? Nope. Virtuosic playing? Nope. Putting it all together? NOPE.

The fact is, IAW was just great. Not because it broke some ground never trodden before. Just because it was great.

The fact is, JP didn't think it would fit in with the heart, so to speak, of DT. The ended up trying it anyway just to see, and then they both felt it didn't, so this version came about.

OH, and using a few forums to determine if the bands mentioned made a mistake... I refuse to accept the scientific validity of said research. A. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, or attention... and B. The majority of the posts on forums are by a relatively small portion of the forum's membership, let alone a small portion of the band's fan base. Just because we talk on forums doesn't mean we are the be all end all of all opinions regaurding a band's music. Sorry.

The one constant on most DT forums... Progsnobbery. No matter how many groups come and go... there is always the progsnobbery element. Prog isn't the only thing there is... its not hte only thing DT does, or has done... They have done mainstream stuff ever since WDADU (A Fortune in Lies is not prog in case anyone wondered). They've also done things that sparked this kind of debate on every album I've ever been a part of the prerelease discussion... so... that's Awake on. I remember people hating Awake. They had the same opinion as fact presentation then as continues to be presented before and during every album release. Somehow the DT world keeps on turning...



EVERYONE, and I mean stinkin everyone knows that Mike and JP make decisions about arrangement most of the time. How is that even an argument in this thread? Did anyone ever think that maybe JM wouldn't give a flying fart about it one way or the other because he's maybe not into worrying about those things? I don't know that, but maybe.

Stop with the freaking conjecture and speculation... I mean really give me a break. Do you people overanalyze what you're having for dinner the way you do a statement from Mike?

This is akin to people starting arguments on the JP forum over whether or not JP should use the new MKV or not... I mean, who freaking cares? If he uses it, great... I'm curious to hear it. If he doesn't, I like what he's been using and its not like my world ends either way.

There is plenty of history... in articles, video, the book... etc. etc. etc. The way they work in the studio is no great mystery. Mike and JP make those calls most of the time. If you don't like it... well, name me a band and I'll show you things about how they record that you won't like. I PROMISE. It may take a while to research it... but I garantee you no band has no moments where someone wouldn't think "where does so and so get off?"

It's like "So and so president is the worst ever..." and I'm always like... oh yeah... What about xyz? Think America sucks now? What about Hawaii, Philipines, Spain, Mexico.... I really am starting to think that people should take tests before they're allowed to open their mouths on some issues... I'm starting to think the way Dream Theater works is one of those issues. The first test? Form your own virtuosity based prog metal band and do better...  If you fail that one, but at least pass most of the other tests involving reading the book, past threads, watch DVDs, listen to commentaries... etc. etc... and answer specific questions correctly... then you might be qualified to gripe about how DT produce an album.

 I think we should let the band do what the fuck they want, and if you don't like it, don't listen to that song, or make a band by yourself and do things your way.  You can't try to control a band.  Criticism is okay, but when you start bashing the members it isn't okay.  I personally would feel really sad if someone didn't like my part of a song.  REALLY BAD.  How would you feel?  Just think about this...

I am glad this thread is here.  I was thinking of starting one on james but I guess i can just put it here.

I was wondering if you guys thought  JL fits DT lately. 
Please don't flame me.  I am not a hater of DT. I am 31 now and I started my love for DT when I was 14.  I still love DT. I bought the LTE and BC&SL box sets and I have tickets to the show in orlando next month.

But it seems to me that on the last two albums JL's vocals have not quite meshed to well for me.  More on BC&SC than SC. To Me it seems that maybe DT has gone in a slightly heavier direction and JL's does't sound right with effects and trying to sound like he has balls..

Now I do love SC and BC&SL musically.  I don't know if  it is the vocal melody that JL is trying to sing to or maybe the lyrics he is singing or maybe he has lost some range, but for some reason the whole package is not there for me.  I tried to imagine someone else fronting DT like a Miles Kennedy, some one with some range but yet not as clean, but I don't know if that would work with the new music. Maybe the music is just not to friendly to sing to.

I don't know.  What do you guys think?

Tom

^ nope. I love how James sounds on BCSL.

Mike,

Your vocal work for the final version of A Nightmare to Remember suited the song perfectly. The tone, phrasing, and mixing of that section of vocal work was done very well. It is very misfortunate that you were forced to explain your reasoning behind choosing that style of singing only to satisfy haters.

Although.. every black cloud has a silver lining  


For every small minority of unhappy fans, there will always be a greater group of overly-satisfied fans who are very thankful for the work you, as well as the rest of the Dream Theater family, have created.

Well Mike, I have been a member of this forum for a very long time and I do know you are not 'thick skinned' when it comes to bashing about your songs on the 'net.   I don't blame you bro, you work hard to create some kick ass music.   You know, the problem is that folks would NEVER say this to your face, but behind the faceless internet community - whatever, they can say anything that strikes their fancy. 

I have only listened to the new disc 1 1/2 times but I can say it is a solid disc.  Over all the Dream Theater albums, they have an incredible hit to miss ratio.  The only other band with that great consistancy (IMO) is RUSH.  Not bad company.

Screw the haters Mike.  Constructive criticism is welcome I am sure, but bashing is lame.  See you at the Greek Theater with Dweezil Zappa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Timmutin

TrueSagan

Magical Man

TrueSagan

Epitaph04


^^^

They made a "mistake"? Wow dude...

Was the St. Anger snare a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Was the mixing on Vapour Trails a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Are the vocals on ANTR a mistake? As far as I can see on most forums, the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative with people making fun of it and parodying it left and right. I'd say it was a mistake.

And if what you're saying is going to make almost everyone laugh, could it be considered a mistake? Would that make it change your mind? What if you're deeply convinced in what you're saying, but everyone would find it laughable, would you be a good little lamb and shut the fuck up?

I hope you'd carry on telling people what you think respectfully, not trying to prove what is "good" or "bad", because there's no such thing in music. That's the beauty of it, and the whole fucking point.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, I didn't resort to any profanity in my posts, and neither should you.

Don't worry, I won't return to this thread, you guys can keep living in politically correct world.

You should return to this thread and explain why it's a mistake. Or do you seriously think that in music you can call the decisions of an artist a MISTAKE when some people yell about it on some silly little internet sites? Who the hell are the everyone you talk about? Your friends? ...My friends liked the snare on St. Anger so in my little head that should be the Truth, right? Oh and I sure can dig up some threads about that snare for example so I can prove my point how "EVERYONE" loved it. The truth is always much more complicated. Mistake sounds like it should have been something else... Well it is what it is and the only thing you can do is live with it.

Never say that an opinion is the truth.

So.....who likes puppies

ME!!!!!!!!111!111oneone

I've posted it before, but it really bears repeating--

I LOVE MP's ending vox on the version of ANTR that DT chose to release--totally fucking metal.

And with that being said (again)... Mister Mike, the LAST thing you should be worrying about is justifying something that you had a hand in creating.  While I agree that criticism can sometimes be a very bitter pill to swallow the bottom line is that if your creations (whatever they may be) satisfy YOU, that's all that really matters at the end of the day.  You truly are a class act, man.

<3,
DBK

mesavox

 Do you people overanalyze what you're having for dinner the way you do a statement from Mike?

Yes, and I guarantee that the desert course is 100% growl free. 

TrueSagan


Was the St. Anger snare a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Was the mixing on Vapour Trails a mistake? Yes, because everyone hated it. Are the vocals on ANTR a mistake? As far as I can see on most forums, the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative with people making fun of it and parodying it left and right. I'd say it was a mistake.

 I can't believe someone said this. Obviously everyone will be making fun of this and parodying it left and right, so therefore this statement was a mistake. Yup.

Mike,

An very interesting look into the creation of this song--thanks! I have been a fan since '92 and every real fan knows no one does more for their fans in any other band anywhere--NO ONE!!! Thanks for all the great music over the years, thanks for this fantastic new album (including the Deluxe Box Set), and thanks for being a constant source of entertainment and inspiration.

JG

I'm so sorry that you have to see the foolishness that goes on here sometimes Mike. It's not fair on someone who works so hard... I really love your new album and have loved every one you ever done. Chin up mate :-)

Flacid Snake

Cosmo


This is one of those threads that calls me out of my semi-retirement.

I agree with all the MP shouldnt have to defend himself posts. MP, you are part of the creative process in the music that DT makes, and honestly, if some people are like "omg teh v0x are n0t teh r0x0r wtflollerskates" then honestly, to hell with them. One thing I have always noticed with DT's fanbase is that we are among the most loyal and respectful fans ever, but there are also some people who, no matter what, will never be satisfied. (Never Enough, dare I say?)

In my humble opinion, MP, you need to actually sing alot more. You have a great voice and I hope on the next album you contribute more vocals. And yes, I enjoy the new album LOTS. I respect peoples opinion, and being in the US, I also respect someones right to free speece. But honestly, MP does alot more for the fans than alot of other musicians I know of. Constructive criticism is one thing, but bashing is just uncalled for. MP, I appreciate what you do and thank you for all the great music and stuff you have done for your fans.

This x 100

Most of my favourite moments in DT songs are when you and JLB do vocal trade off's, like in Constant Motion, War Inside. and especially Glass Prison. I play guitar myself but I think my favourite part to DT songs are the vocals, they always follow nice rhythmical patterns, especially when, as I said both you and JLB have a duet-kind of thing going on

X 200

samericanos


Mr. Portnoy:

I'm not sure if you (or anyone else, for that matter, at this point--6th page and all) will read this, but I have to at least try; needless to say, I hope you do.

I obviously don't know you personally, and I have only met you for a transitory moment at a signing in Toronto during SC tour (HMV). However, from what I, in my decidedly humble opinion, have seen, read, and heard of you over the years as a fan, I am both angered and ashamed of those who think it nothing to sit at a computer, behind the veil and safety of anonymity, and criticize, insult, and outright defamate the character and integrity of you and your craft.  Perhaps, it is the fact that you have been such an open, honest, and approachable celebrity. Perhaps, this magnanimity on your part (and, truly, that is exactly what I feel is it, you giving as much of yourself as you do, when you certainly are in no obligation to do so) has become a balywick of sorts for you, a kind of proverbial Cross you must bear now. I honestly do not know. All I know is that, far from embracing and applading this in someone so many of us consider not only an influence or idol musically, but also an inspiration as a human being, this cruel and coothless contingent of so-called "fans" seem to find respite and hermitage from their own obviously pathetic and talentless lives in their invariable (and, I might add, unimaginative and uninspired) negativity.

Every single time I read something these perrenial curmudgeons spew forth regarding you or DT in general, I am at once filled with a shame borne of my otherwise tangential association with them as a fan, as well as a profound sense of sadness for a you, simply by virtue of who you are and what you have come to represent to so many of us. 

I am neither what these idiots like to call a "fanboy" (what in God's Holy Name does that mean, anyway? When did being a devout follower of anything come to take on negative connotations?), nor am I overly impressed by celebrity and stardom in their own respective rights. It is the character of the man/woman behind the facade that transcends their claim to fame. You, sir, have every right, given your talent, longevity, and place in musical history, to be as big an asshole, as aloof and condescending, even as rude and downright ignorant, as, say, Billy Bob Thornton. But, you're not, and I, personally, would like to commend and thank you for that:

I want to thank you for inspiring me to be a better musician; I want to thank you for showing me what true character is in a person (any person, irregardless of their station in life); I want to thank you for never giving up on the rest of us, when others in our variegated midst treat you with such shameful disrespect (on their behalf, since they lack both the manners and grace to do so, I apologize to you); I would like to thank you on behalf of the rest of us: all those that listen to your music, all those who respect the decisions you make both in your craft and in your life, all those that are along for this incredible journey with you through all the peaks and valleys, and all those who support you no matter what with the ineffible joy and pride that comes with being a true Dream Theater fan.

Thank you, Mr. Portnoy, to you personally, and to the rest of Dream Theater for honoring us all with your time, patience, and, above all, Music.

RF
Sarnia, Ontario, Canada

I read it and appreciated it... and agree with it!

ill probably get chewed out for this but I guess this thread kinda seperates the true fans from the others

satch22

Epitaph04


^^^

People hated that part of UAGM on Score?

I don't know about you, but I live for those moments during DTs live shows.  Who wants to hear it exactly the same way the album portrays it?  I love Jordan Ruddess' Old Movie sounding intro to Surrounded and how the band all comes in.  I also love the set changing tag thing at the end of Spirit Carries On on Live Scenes. 
 

Well just for the record..I agree with everything you say. I think the Score version of UAGM absolutely DESTROYS the album version..in every way possible. I LOVE the new tone/vibe the band sets on Surrounded 07...etc etc...

citizen erased


ill probably get chewed out for this but I guess this thread kinda seperates the true fans from the others

How so? And who is that in your avatar? I know I've seen him before but his name escapes me.