The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember"

Mike, I would like you to know that there is one fan in Costa Rica who loves everything DT puts out!!

Rock on!!!

firstly, i love the growly vocal, cookie monster or the final cut, they fit the song. great song as well. it is bad that you should have to defend your music, its not for fans to decide what gets put out, its the band's decision. all i can say is i hope you take sod all notice of the negativity of some fans and keep on producing the cool music you have always done. thanks for everything. 

goodforgolf


First of all, as a fan of Opeth, i LOVED that cookie monster version! Feel free to do that anytime, Mike. :) Secondly, I think the album version kicks ass, when I heard people complaining, I really didn't get it. I mean, the song IS called A Nightmare to Remember.... so I thought it was appropriate. maybe these guys want Bert and Ernie singing about their nightmares....

Lastly, thank you, thank you, thank you for breaking that down for us. That is so awesome that you would take the time to share that with us, what other band would ever do that? I feel bad that you felt you had to do it to defend yourself, but I'm glad I got the behind the scenes look.

So in the end, please don't give up doing those kinds of vocals Mike, they make DT that much more diverse, and in a metal song, I think it fits nicely. I didn't know you had it in you, if Akerfeldt ever calls it quits with Opeth, I expect you to take up the reigns. :)

*shudders*

Wow this is awesome that you cleared this up.  James high voice right there does not fit, and now people that complained about your vocals can hear what it could have been

I think you should have given John Myung or Jordan a chance with the cookie monster vocals before ditching the idea entirely. ;-)

Thanks for the explanation, Mike. While I didn't care for that part of the song when I first started listening, they are starting to grow on me. And, live, they'll probably kick ass because I think the crowd will join in on that part.

TKH

You know I don't quite understand the bashing myself.  I mean I critique what Dream Theater releases and usually just state how I feel regarding specific songs/parts.  I don't understand why people (and I've seen comments around and about) have to dish out personal attacks to the band members.  It's kind of sad really that some can't at the very least accept the music for what it is.  One doesn't necessarily have to like it but people don't really need to completely disrespect the band members with immature name-calling and completely terrorizing them in comments.

The fact that MP felt the need to defend himself says that some people are extremely harsh to him and I mean you'd think that since 1989 people would have by now given him some sort of break.  The only personal advice I would want to give MP right now is just not to let this behavior bother him since by now we understand that for some, they can be nothing but aggressive and demoralizing but his true fans will respect him to the end.

I don't like all of Black Clouds, at least not yet, and no one should be forced to like something but it was many years ago when MP earned my respect and in my eyes he's proven himself more than anyone's needed to.  So hopefully MP you can find some comfort in these words and I assure you millions of others share the sentiment.

Carpe Diem!

I'm sory, butr I'm getting sick of Abydos...Assuming the intellectual high ground when he doesn't in fact have it, and constantly criticising. You have no right to speak like that. Mike Portnoy is one of the best musicians out there. if you don't think so, fine, but don't take every opportunity to posture your disdain for something he does out of his love for us. it's not fair on him. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Okay, I just have to go on record and say comments like the following completely baffle me:
 

Borlag
As for the growling itself, I didn't think it was that bad...

I would almost rather deal with someone who outright doesn't like the vocals than those who say they are "not that bad" or "are tolerable" or whatever.  That implies, to me, that "I don't care for them, but they don't take away from the song too much."  I dunno...I'm coming at this from a completely different angle I guess, but as with Constant Motion, I LOVE heavier vocals.  I don't think it's a question of having to tolerate them and try to get into a headspace where they don't drag the song down.  Screw that.  They enhance my enjoyment of the song.  For crying out loud, it's a HEAVY, DRAMATIC part of the song!  The vocal should be different and dramatic, and grab the listener by the collar.  I love James' voice.  He, Ray Gillen, and Sebastian Bach are probably my three biggest musical influences as a singer.  But I'm glad Mike's vocals are here to provide the harsher counterpoint.  It fits the song and takes it to another level.  I'm so glad it was done that way.
 
As for the alternate vocal tracks:  The full on growl/grunt made me...just...wow.  I agree with JP that they are too heavy.  But by the same token, while I am not generally a fan of that vocal style, I had no idea you could nail it so well.  There are plenty of grunters out there.  Very few sound good to my ears.  Most sound horrible, in my opinion.  Mike, yours are definitely up there.  Just awesome.  If you ever are inclined to do a solo album/side project with you on lead vocals, I would love to hear more of this.  (probably NOT the right call for DT music, but for a project outside of DT, it would be awesome)
 
The mix with James singing at the same time is REALLY cool.  I like it a lot and I'm glad you let us listen.  But I am also glad it didn't end up in the final mix because (1) as you said, it is a bit too much compressed into a limited sonic space, and sounds confusing, and (2) since the popular thing nowadays in bands that mix growling and clean vocals usually is to feature a WOMAN doing the clean vocals...well, let's just say that as someone who runs one of those other forums, thanks for not giving me yet another rule enforcement headache for having to deal with all kinds of comparisons.  :p
 
Lastly, I want to address the end of Mike's post, which is something close to my heart.  I understand all too well that when you pour your heart into something and put it out there for the public to enjoy, it has got to be hard to see people criticize it.  But, by the same token, constructive criticism is invaluable.  If for no other reason, people just see things differently.  As someone who runs "one of those other fan forums," it is a daily struggle trying to maintain a site that I personally feel enhances the overall image of the band and promotes their music, while still allowing people the freedom to express their dislikes, provided they do it constructively and not in a way that amounts to senseless bashing or personal attacks.  I really hope that the comments about the "other" forums does not really refer to mine.  But I also acknowledge that a some of the people who try to express constructive criticism are just flat out lousy at it.  And I'm sure what is brought to your attention, Mike, are the few who definitely toe or cross the line, and that you probably are NOT really in tune with all the hard work that goes on by me and others over there to promote a positive image for DT, as well as the vast majority of (well-deserved) glowing praise that is daily lavished on DT.  I have to admit that, as someone who is there almost every day, even *I* get sick of the negativity sometimes, to the point where I get so frustrated I think about pulling the plug.  But then I eventually come around and have to acknowledge that many of the detractors are actually really loyal fans of the band who may not be the best at expressing a critical opinion in a constructive way, and that those who are outright negative toward the band are NOT the majority--they are often just the loudest.  But in the event my forum was being lumped in with certain others, in defense of both the fans on that board and of myself and the way I run it, I'll just end by saying that, overall, it is a place where a great community of fans are able to get together and discuss all things DT, good, bad, and indifferent, and if some of that results in negativity at times, please understand that (1) I and my staff do our best to keep it under control, and (2) it is populated by human beings who are just as flawed as me, Mike Portnoy, and...frankly, anybody else, and we sometimes don't do the best job of articulating our thoughts in a way that doesn't hurt. 
 
Anyhow, enough of my rambling.

Mike, I have never had a problem with your vocals, especially in the context which you use them (which is always when they are needed in my opinion). They have a great constrast and it's a nice change every so often.

I listen to lots of bands with growling in them (Opeth, BTBAM, Mushuggah, Bloodbath etc.) so I personally think it would have been great to hear growling in that section, and in other similar situations in order to achieve more emotion. However I most definitely wouldn't want it to become a regular thing in Dream Theater's music. As a huge fan of Opeth and Mikael Akerfeldt, I think it would have been incredible if he did guest vocals (growling). Who knows though, maybe he could do it on the PN Europe tour?

Anyway, I just hope you realise what a small minority the "bashers" are. I'm absolutely ecstatic about BC&SL, I think it's the best thing you've done since SFAM/6DOIT (the best new album I've heard in a long time actually) and I cannot wait to see you and DT at PN! Thanks for everything.

Mike,

First of all, I burst out laughing at work (i'm in a small office with 4 other people) when I listened to the cookie monster version. It was awkward... yet hilarious. I actually would have enjoyed it just as much the cookie way!

Anyway, I just want to say it's ridiculous that this has got to the point where you must defend yourself. I've been very frustrated everywhere I look, because Dream Theater "fans" are giving you guys such a hard time... 
You put endless effort into this album, and you are the most fan-driven band!

Don't be discouraged by all the negative things circling around the internet. So many people just like to complain. The reality is that everyone should appreciate the fact that you've put your all into this album, and into this band for the last 20+ years! And you're still releasing amazing, heart-felt music with mind-blowing fills/solos, passionate lyrics, heavy riffs and still taking risks!

I love it! Just keep writing music the way you want to! Keep it up, and don't be discouraged by the n00bs who bash! There's waaay more people that adore Dream Theater than it appears.


ps - I think BC&SL is the best album since SFAM!!! Rock on! Can't wait to see you in Boston!!

bosk1


Okay, I just have to go on record and say comments like the following completely baffle me:
 

Borlag
As for the growling itself, I didn't think it was that bad...

I would almost rather deal with someone who outright doesn't like the vocals than those who say they are "not that bad" or "are tolerable" or whatever.  That implies, to me, that "I don't care for them, but they don't take away from the song too much."  I dunno...
 
Anyhow, enough of my rambling.

Anything to take a snipe eh? Anyway, you're right, you don't know. I've heard much better growls than on ANTR, but I've also heard much worse too. I didn't say they're bad, nor did I say they're good, to me it was passable, as in ok, alright, [insert any other words here to imply that it doesn't suck but it's not great either]...

Other than that, thanks for reminding to add you to the ignore list here as well. Don't know why I haven't done that earlier...

I love A Nightmare to Remember the way it is. I believe it's one of Dream Theater's best songs in a long time. I've never had problems with your vocals, Mike, as opposed to some fans.

And to be honest with you, even tough I am one, I hate most Dream Theater fans. Most Dream Theater fans are a pain in the ass... hopefuly I'll never get to be so picky and annoying when it comes to analyzing and enjoying one of my favourite bands music.

I too feel sorry that you have to do this, but I get where you're coming from. Sometimes it must be too much for someone to handle. The album sounds fucking awsome... so don't even bother again. I hope this album sells millions. As time goes by and I read your posts, watch your DVDs, my respect for you grows.

I for one would be very interested to hear MP do a side project of really heavy stuff as we know he listens to many bands that are quite heavy. With DT it's a balancing act, you can never go full on.

Wow thanks for the walkthrough on the background to this process.

I've got to say that the growling "Opeth" vocals rocked. I'm not a massive growling fan but as long as the lyrics are still understandable, and it's not the whole song sung that way, it's all good. I think it's a really good tool that a band can use as a vocal effect, but it shouldn't be their standard method of vocals. The "I" part of TCOT is pretty much the perfect way to do it IMO.

Any chance we can get a vocal stem of your Opeth vocals Mike???

Mike your awesome. Thanks for taking the time to explain  your thoughts on the tune. I don't think you need to defend yourself though. It's your music and your album, do what you want to with it.

Hey Mike,
 
Thanks for the insight on how you guys work together.
 
But you shouldn't have to justify what ya'll did to anyone ecspially the fans.  Ecspially on your own site.  Not all of your fans disect every little thing and complain about it.
 
Thanks for an awesome album.  I've been listening to it non-stop for 5 days now.    My 6 year old daughter loves The Best of Times!!

I think the vocals fit the moood of the music perfectly.  When I listened to the song for the first time on Tuesday and that section started, the vocals didn't even surprise me.   It seemed like a natural evolution in the song.

wtf... that's my favorite part in the entire song!!! No need in defending that IMO

lukebuckland


I feel bad that you have to defend yourself, Your Album is your music, it's want you want us to hear, not what we want you to write, I want to hear your ideas.

Be happy knowing that the amount of "slammers" is Negligable compared to those who have the utmost respect for what you do in DT and other projects.

This.  Whether I like the cookie monster vocals or not is immaterial.  Mike, I salute you (and the rest of the band) for having the balls to put it out there, the integrity to stand behind it, and the respect for your fans to even bother to explain yourself.
 
I mean this:  at this point you could put out a bluegrass polka album and I'd buy it just to support the cause of artists with passion for what they do.  (Having said that, I'm digging the new stuff big time). 

I didn't like it at first, but it gets better (although it's still not great). On a side note, the final version is a lot, lot better than the two demos. Good choice. And thanks for clearing this up.

Live to impress the self first and don't base one's self esteem on the approval of others...  no need to second guess yourself, this is your diary not ours.  (and for the record the final product was superb!)

personally i love that vocal part..  i never understood why anyone was bitching about it.

like mike said... a high melody there would have sounded stupid undera driving metal line. 

Thanks so much for sharing part of the process with us.

That is so fucking cool.

Daan


I didn't like it at first, but it gets better (although it's still not great). On a side note, the final version is a lot, lot better than the two demos. Good choice. And thanks for clearing this up.

And I do like ANTR. In fact, it's the second best song on the album. And one of the best songs DT ever made.

it's so cool to make the actual creative process available for people to see.  The honorable MP always goes above and beyond!  But you know what they say: familiarity breeds contempt.  Which is too bad.  And I guess in these tough economic times there just aren't enough cups of Shut the Fuck Up to go around. 

Portnoy

It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...

Can't say for sure... but Daniel Gildenlow? 

 

I am not here to piss on anything or anyone. So I will keep my mouth shut about what I think of the new album. But for me there is one big problem with 'new' DT muisc and that is (and of course it's not that I want more growl):

"In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow"

True progressive music is about pushing the boundries, stretching away from the norm - and clearly this is what you did to serve the music to be the best it could be -  My hat is off to you Mike, as well as the rest of the band!   Stay true to yourselves!

Mark me down as an always loyal, true DT fan!

bosk1


Lastly, I want to address the end of Mike's post, which is something close to my heart.  I understand all too well that when you pour your heart into something and put it out there for the public to enjoy, it has got to be hard to see people criticize it.  But, by the same token, constructive criticism is invaluable.  If for no other reason, people just see things differently.  As someone who runs "one of those other fan forums," it is a daily struggle trying to maintain a site that I personally feel enhances the overall image of the band and promotes their music, while still allowing people the freedom to express their dislikes, provided they do it constructively and not in a way that amounts to senseless bashing or personal attacks.  I really hope that the comments about the "other" forums does not really refer to mine.  But I also acknowledge that a some of the people who try to express constructive criticism are just flat out lousy at it.  And I'm sure what is brought to your attention, Mike, are the few who definitely toe or cross the line, and that you probably are NOT really in tune with all the hard work that goes on by me and others over there to promote a positive image for DT, as well as the vast majority of (well-deserved) glowing praise that is daily lavished on DT.  I have to admit that, as someone who is there almost every day, even *I* get sick of the negativity sometimes, to the point where I get so frustrated I think about pulling the plug.  But then I eventually come around and have to acknowledge that many of the detractors are actually really loyal fans of the band who may not be the best at expressing a critical opinion in a constructive way, and that those who are outright negative toward the band are NOT the majority--they are often just the loudest.  But in the event my forum was being lumped in with certain others, in defense of both the fans on that board and of myself and the way I run it, I'll just end by saying that, overall, it is a place where a great community of fans are able to get together and discuss all things DT, good, bad, and indifferent, and if some of that results in negativity at times, please understand that (1) I and my staff do our best to keep it under control, and (2) it is populated by human beings who are just as flawed as me, Mike Portnoy, and...frankly, anybody else, and we sometimes don't do the best job of articulating our thoughts in a way that doesn't hurt.

I just want to quote this for emphasis and agreement, as I'm part of bosk's staff and I know exactly how frustrating it can get for him and for the rest of us.  I've been a part of one of these "other fan forums" for quite some - and in my experience, while there are always some very vocal critics, the amount of DT love and praise FAR outweighs the amount of hate and negativity, and there are plenty of die-hards on the other forums such as myself who for whatever reason just happen to fit in better with the crowds over there than with the crowd over here, and its especially frustrating to have to repeatedly hear that we're nothing but a bunch of DT bashers just because there are a few especially vocal critics who get all the attention.

And as a side note - I just should point out to those who don't seem to realize this (because its been suggested otherwise in the past): The 5/8 forum is NOT a DT fan site/forum, never has been a DT fan site/forum, and was actually explicitly created for the purposes of getting away from being a DT fan site/forum, so its incredibly unfair to generalize anything said over there as having come from a DT fan forum.

I think for the most part we're all on the same page when it comes to being DT fans, so all I'm really trying to do is to get that point across in hopes that we can all get along :)

Borlag


I don't know if this is gets taken as just mindless bashing or not, but I honestly don't think that people are that much against growling itself or how you growl but rather when to growl. I was quite dumbstruck by the timing of the growling myself, song having somewhat dark lyrics to begin with, yet turning lighter all the time, and then when the story continues and you hear the happy outcome that everyone survives sung in what can't be taken as anything other than angry vocals, followed by a growl... It just makes you (or me in this case) go wtf?

As for the growling itself, I didn't think it was that bad, and based on those samples the one on the album is the best compromise striclty musically speaking, yet the lyrics make it a complete non fit. Just my honest opinion, with no bashing intended.

Same here. No bashing intended, just an opinion. It just doesn't fit, IMO, but the version on the album is by far the best of the three.

Either way, you rock for even addressing the issue. It has to be incredibly hard to balance the artistic confidence you need for your role in the band with staying grounded enough to connect with the fans and try and give us what we want from the band. Thanks MP!

NYCoolRunner

Portnoy

It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...

Can't say for sure... but Daniel Gildenlow?

 
you are kidding
 
Right?

That was really cool of you to share, Mike, thanks.

I honestly thought the vocals were awesome the first time I heard it. 

But I think it would've been even cooler if Labrie could've tried a high pitched scream for that part. That is, if he could do it. Now THAT would be awesome.

MustaineHead


I am not here to piss on anything or anyone. So I will keep my mouth shut about what I think of the new album. But for me there is one big problem with 'new' DT muisc and that is (and of course it's not that I want more growl):

"In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow"

Not sure I fully understand your post. Do mean that the problem now is that it's just MP and JP making decisions?

Maybe we should have a contest for the forum to sing that part and vote just like the SoC contest.

Mike, I think it's great that you are willing to share some of the creative process with your fans like this.

The only thing that perplexes me is that you say that you knew going in that this section would be controversial, and now you are upset that some people don't like it.

The vocals don't bother me per se - my only qualm with it goes along with what a few other people here have already noted (the harshness of the vocals and music don't match the positivity of the lyric).  But I think the vocals are well done on your part.

And, since I'm on staff with bosk1 and ZeppelinDT, I would also hope that you aren't grouping us in with 5/8, or considering 5/8 a DT fan site, because it just isn't one.  We've worked pretty hard to keep a positive mood at our site (DTF.org), and frankly the response to the new album at our site has been overwhelmingly positive (including for this song). 

Stay strong, and thanks for a great album. 

The 1st time I've heard this section I thought Mikael Akerfeldt would be perfect here!
But out of all the other version the band had for this section, the CD version is the best, no question here!
I think Mike voice is great here and need no work!
Mike, I have nothing but recpect for you and you desrve it after everything you have ever done to us (the fans)!!
Keep it up! :P

thefunkygibbons

NYCoolRunner

Portnoy

It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...

Can't say for sure... but Daniel Gildenlow?

 
you are kidding
 
Right?

 Maybe I should say... American fans? Oh well.. I don't follow Daniel's every move, so I can be way off, but from what I hear he's not the best to his American fans and we see how much people love him on this forum. Just speculating..

Anyway, back to your scheduled topic...

Invitation for Mikael Akerfeldt to record this growl part could be the best idea.