The story behind my vocals on "A Nightmare To Remember"

martindecorum


this. not everytime "cookie monster vocals" are used to make something angry or bad
its a different medium

Exactly! Why is it so hard for some people to get that the artist should be the one to decide how to express the emotions he wants to!? Just say you don't like the vocal style...

Like I said before, I love the final version! 

dmb

martindecorum


this. not everytime "cookie monster vocals" are used to make something angry or bad
its a different medium

Exactly! Why is it so hard for some people to get that the artist should be the one to decide how to express the emotions he wants to!? Just say you don't like the vocal style...

Like I said before, I love the final version! 

Because if you're going to express an opinion, it is always more productive to try and explain where it comes from. Otherwise, the words on the forum wouldn't be worth anymore than the 0's and 1's behind them.

The more I listen to this song/album the more I like it all.

Even ROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRR

I do think it's largely true that the fans that absolutely love the album don't speak out as loudly as the fans who have some level of disapproval, thus giving a false sense of 'slamming' of the artist.   The success of MP and DT in general is evidence of the fact that more fans APPROVE of what DT is delivering then those who compromise for their own sets of deficiencies by critiquing them.   As an artist, it's important to rise above these fans Mike.  I know it's hard when you have so much passion for the product you deliver.  Pleasing everyone is impossible and to let the few ruin it for the many just wouldn't make sense.  You and your music is too important to those of us who enjoy it.   It is what it is..fuck 'em!

we all know JM did the first "cookie monster" vocal clip.... 

I didn't read thru all the pages on this topic ... but I just wanted to say, GREAT JOB!! I love how the vocals turned out! Just as any work of art might call for a certain shade of paint to create a certain feel or a recipe might call for a certain ingredient in order to create that perfect taste, the same goes with a musical masterpiece: this song called for a certain type of vocal melody line, and you did it. You've tried it a few ways at first and then came up with the best solution...

I've listened to the album a number of times already and it is truly amazing.... I'll be here the rest of the week describing why I feel that way, so, I'll spare ya and just leave it at "I love it. It moves me", for now.

all the best.
- trice :o)

Kyo

martindecorum

It's a miracle he lived
It's a blessing no-one died
By the grace of God above
Everyone survived! ROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!

 
not everytime "cookie monster vocals" are used to make something angry or bad
its a different medium

So it's a happy kind of "ROAAAAAAAAAAR!", not an angry one?

It's like throwing your fist in the air kind of YEAH-roar :)
Listening to the part at the moment.

Oh man I'm totally pasting that cookie monster bit into the full song.

it is really sick !!!!!

there are some people here mostly those bashers who certainly listen to some underground progressive band (unnamed) who think they are the only persons that know what music and progressive metal is, they forget that progressive is all about experimenting otherwise it will be static metal, well an album is by definition a collection of tracks created by artists and then released to people it is not the opposite so to all those bashers i would like to tell them :

1- DT has certainly been an influence to those underground bands they are so proud to listen to
2-MP is the most devoted person to his fan ( wtf imagine Lars ulrich posting this thread , No fucking way)
3-MP dont need to justify his work , but as he is REALLY DEVOTED he even showed the process and the constraints before choosing the final vocal section which i certainly doubt anyone else of his stature would
3- i doubt you play instruments or even sing because when we are musicians we dont bash musicians because we know that there are alot
of ideas  but just 90 minutes on a CD .............

To MP i Say :

You already Know That There Are a Lot of People That respect You like their Fathers,Brothers and i am one of those so keep it up and See ya
on Tour

I like the song.  I like the vocals.

is Mikael Akerfeldt  going to sing it live? that would be cool!

You don't have to defend yourself, Mike. You bring us fantastic music and DVDs every year. We listen to your music because it IS different than mainstream radio. Keep rockin'.

Hey Mike, In the end I think you guys ended up with a great finished product. Im not a big fan of the cookie monster vocals but they can be cool when used for just a piece of the song. I admire the fact that you sing, kick ass drumming and singing at the same time pretty dam cool. I think your vocals do add a nice contrast and screw what those haters are saying they are just jealous cuz that cant do it.

You rock Mike keep singing.

Tim

I would prefer this section with clean vocals....Sorry MP, i liked your spot on Prophets of War but in this case...not my cup of tea....

I hate the MP vocals on ANTR, I prefer the growl-type version.

You know something, Mike? I have all the love, admiration, and respect in the world for you. And I personally like your vocals on this album.

That section in "A Nightmare To Remember" did indeed call for a death growl.

Do what you do, Mike.

Mike, thanks so much for the rare insight on the decision making process. Perhaps down the road at some point, this kind of thing might make for a Ytsejam or fan club release. Just another idea.
 
I'm no fan of cookie monster vocals (yet), but I have to say I prefer your original intention over the compromise. I thought it sounded more organic and natural to me.  But then, I'm always for taking chances as long as the attempt is honest.
 
That said, it certainly isn't a dealbreaker the way it ended up.
 
Besides, who is the new number 6? 

IMHO your talents lie in drumming and backing vocals/harmonies Mike, NOT growling. While I think that the placement of these vocals was totally contradictory given the context of the lyrics, even if they WERE well-placed, I think that the way you jokingly refer to them as "cookie monster" growls is symbolic of the fact that they aren't really for you, because quite honestly, people who do them WELL like Mikael Akerfeldt do NOT sound like "the cookie monster." They sound extremely powerful and natural while growling, while you almost sound like you're parodying these growls (hence why you actually sound like the cookie monster, lol.) Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with experimentation, nothing ventured nothing gained: but I think you should learn the appropriate lesson from this particular venture, which is that DT isn't melo death metal, you're progressive metal and waaaay better at it. Just a fan's opinion, though - even if I'm not too big on BC/SL I'm still a huge fan and will always have the utmost respect for your work and dedication.

Mike! It's ok! I like your vocals. They make DT's songs more harder more havier IMHO. Do what your're doing and don't care what the say about it!

I may be 11 pages too late at this point, but I think MP was spot on with his call. The current version struck me a little odd, and hearing the 'Cookie Monster' version made it fit into place a lot better. Oh well!

I really respect MP for coming on here to share what happened though. Props! :)

Portnoy


I knew my vocals in A Nighmare To Remember would surely spark some controversy...looks like I was right!  
 
As The Count Of Tuscany once said:
"wait a minute man....that's not how it is...let me please explain!"
 
1. The original melody that JP had to this section I felt did not work with the music. This section of the song has a really heavy, driving Judas Priest/King Diamond vibe musically...and JP had a melody that was more melodic and James' high voice I felt REALLY softened up the music to this very important dramatic section of the song.
 
(mp3 not available for this example)
 
 
2. I really kept hearing a Mikael Akerfeldt type Opeth death growl (yes, cookie monster vocals - sorry Setlist Scotty!) Like em or hate em, the section was really calling for it to my ears (listen to the instrumental version and you'll hear what I mean...)
The thought crossed my mind to ask Mikael himself to do it, but then I figured I'd end up having to do it live every night on tour, so it might as well be me on the CD....
 
So I gave it my best shot and here's what it was:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20MP%20Cookie.mp3
 
In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow...
 
 
3. So I agreed to try adding James doing a bit of a "counterpoint" to my cookie monster version to possible help soften the blow and add a little melody to the part....so here's what it sounded like:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR MP & JLB.mp3
 
I did not dig this approach as
a) James' clean vocals were still softening up the music to me
b) the counterpoint approach made it all too confusing and distracted from the drive of the music
 
 
4. So John and I went back to the idea of keeping my vocals for the section to keep it heavy and driving, but getting rid of the Opeth cookie monster approach and going for a more Robb Flynn/Machine Head approach instead (kind of like my "Constant Motion" voice)
 
In the end, that is what we went with:
 
 http://www.mikeportnoy.com/mp/ANTR%20Final.mp3
 
I did indeed know that no matter what, we wouldn't please everybody with the idea, but I really felt a "heavy" approach was needed to keep the heaviness of the section (and hey...look at Roger Waters, Wayne Coyne, Neil Young, Dave Mustaine, Jeff Tweety, James Hetfield, etc etc. the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )
 
I know my voice my not be everybody's cup of tea (especially the heavy side), but sometimes
a contrast to James' cleaner vocals are needed with some of the heavy riffs and I believe "character" or "personality" in a voice is just as important in music and the expression of your art, it's not always about virtuoso, operatic range...
 
Ultimately, if you really are bothered by em then I suppose you can at least thank me for making the instrumental mixes and isolated stems available!

 
MP
 
 
PS - On a side note as this thread is really aimed to clear up my side of the street amongst the bashers: I must say the amount of hatred and negativity towards me on other DT "fan" sites is truly incredible (you know who you are)...my skin is not as thick as you may think!
 
It baffles me that as the member of DT (or any band for that matter) that must be one of the most fan-driven musicians in the industry, I am so slammed by our "fans"...while other artists (who will go unnamed) that could care less our fans are put on a pedestal....sorry, I am still human and can read these forums and it indeed hurts sometimes...
 
Please feel free to post this on those sites as well...
 
 

Hi Mike 
I thought the Opeth growling version is way better man,
except I dun really like how you end the growls, anyway just my opinion,
we fans are thankful of what you did for DT but artistic views are always subjective. 
So just put on what you think is the best!
IMHO

mickey

I've read through a lot of this thread but not all.  Here's my $.02:

1) Portnoy's a class act to interact with the fans like he does.  His willingness to get into his motivation is commendable.

2) When a band has a great vocalist like LaBrie, I don't understand the need to add death metal growling elements, no matter how much the music is supposed to be "dark and aggressive".  Would rather see some changes in LaBries delivery if needed to go with what the music is calling for.  A band that knows how to do this well is Symphony X.  Russell Allen can change his approach from smooth and melodic to harsh and aggressive.  It's almost as if his voice has patches like a keyboard.  Again, with LaBrie, why doesn't he have more say on what the singing should be?  He's the vocalist after all.

3) There are too many bands IMHO with great vocalists that do this for some reason and I believe it detracts from the music.  Pagan's Mind and After Forever are two examples.  I love them both but can do without any growling.  I just don't think it's musical.

4) It's ultimately DT's decision but I have to agree with JP that if they had gone with the first approach that was considered, it would have likely been less accepted.  So, if that's the case and causes a concern even within the band, why risk any backlash?  I'm not suggesting playing it safe since this is DT after all but you'd think they would want full agreement within the band on what they are offering to the fans.

5) My final view is that this is one of the best DT CD's they've ever done.  Composition is improved over the last couple of CD's and the production is just stellar.  I can live with the growls but hope they don't do this much in the future.

Cheers,
Paul

First, the usual: Topics such as this are part of the reason I appreciate DT to the extent I do; there's a workable interaction between the fans and the band that really does say something about the humanity of the people playing. Mike's clearly a good person and I'm sorry that people crossed the line of criticism into personal attack. It would upset me too (similar things in my past, though not on this scale, have).

As far as the section in question goes, I agree that the problem is the placement of the vox, not the execution (though as an Opeth fan I did love the growls and would gladly buy a version with them). However, if we remove the vox for a second and just look at the lyrics, there's a bit more subtlety in play there:

It's a miracle he lived
It's a blessing no one died
By the grace of god above
Everyone survived

Now, if you assume the person saying the lines is an arbitrary speaker, the lines do grate a little bit. However, we have to remember that the person saying this is the child (Or adult, either way, JP in this case) and that narrators should never be relied on to give the full story, especially first-person ones (Think Nick Carroway from The Great Gatsby). Note the earlier lines:

I asked about the others
Is everyone ok?
He told me not to worry
As he turned and looked away

In the growled lines, note the child specifically says that everyone "survived" and that "no one died". He never says that everyone involved in the crash was just peachy and fine. Anything except someone dying as a result of the crash could have happened -- someone could have gotten their spine broken and ended up paralyzed, or someone could be missing a limb or limbs, or there could have been immense mental trauma or permenant burns, etc.

Personally, I think James should have sung those four lines very softly, perhaps over some tritoned, Gothic sounding (Opethian acoustic?) chording -- it would have allowed the subtlety to be more noticeable and would have emphasized the ambiguity and the deliberate holes in the provided information.

But hell, what do I know? It's DT's song and that's just my opinion. However they want to do it -- it's their show, right? (Though I do think that James should have a litle more input on his vocal melodies, but it's not my place to say that).

Strato


I may be 11 pages too late at this point, but I think MP was spot on with his call. The current version struck me a little odd, and hearing the 'Cookie Monster' version made it fit into place a lot better. Oh well!

 
Without hearing the original treatment from JP, I wouldn't like to say MP was spot on with his call. I'd also liked to have heard a guest vocalist synonymous with that style of music doing that section.
 
Personally I think I'd rather the published version had the death vocals than what they finally went with and I'm a little frustrated that a controversial section of an otherwise fantastic song seems to be a result of a compromise rather than a strong artistic vision.

I think part of my problem lies in the fact that DT have a world class vocalist (in the studio, at least) singing for them, and his voice is synonymous with the band's music as far as I'm concerned, so when someone else is taking the lead then they've got a lot to live up to.

Very true Mike! I think people tend to be so
picky and close minded...which is easy for a fan to do.
I know I still catch myself doing so from time to time but
being a musician myself I realize what it is like to have people
criticize and put you in a box. It is good to please the fans but
ultimately at the end of the day you are the guys writing this
and this is your Dream and Passion...so do what you love and
what comes natural to you.
All respect to you and the Dream Theater crew cause you
guys not only stay true to your sound but you try to be
innovative on every album and that is what I love about you guys!
Keep writing amazing albums!
P.S. BC&SL is an outstanding album and by the way you sing good so no worries there.

I don't mind the vocals on the album, and I thought the cookie monster growls sounded kinda cool too. 

But I don't think that James' singing took away from the heaviness of the section.  The mix of heavy music and James' softer vocals has always been a very interesting dichotomy to me and part of the reason I like the band.  It sets them apart from what is the norm, and I don't think there is any better example of DT's heavy side mingling with James' vocals than on The Glass Prison. 

To me that is the shining example of DT's ability to mix heavy with prog, and the vocal melodies on that song are some of my all time DT favorites.  They don't detract or add to the heaviness, but rather strengthen the song in general.  And even with James' high vocals, the song still ends up being one of DT's heaviest and most brutal songs.

ANTR is fine the way it is, and I think  its pointless to squabble over MPs vocals.  He shouldn't have had to come out and explain himself because, personally, the vocals are not out of left field at all. 

Having said all that, I do find myself wishing they utilized James' abilities a little more.  I don't think focusing more on using his clean vocal style would detract in any way from what DT is doing, and in fact I think it would strengthen it. 

But I am not in the band so in having no say as to what happens with the songs,  I will appreciate the songs as they come.

Hey, Mike, I think your vocals sound fine on A Nightmare To Remember. The final version is a good compromise and fits the music very well.

Portnoy
the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )

This is the one thing I disagree with. Believe me, I have tried singing for years, and I simply can't. Period. Oh, I can get the "personality and emotion," but I usually can't find the right notes, and hitting the right notes does kinda have some importance when singing.

That passage of the son ANTR it's the one that makes you put an angry face and shake your head off! And also, Mike's voice was the perfect to fit in the album song...really espectacular!ç
Keep rockin' Mike!

Jorge Braga
CARPE DIEM

NobodyImportant


Hey, Mike, I think your vocals sound fine on A Nightmare To Remember. The final version is a good compromise and fits the music very well.

Portnoy
the truth is *anybody* can sing...it's all about having personailty and emotion in the expression... )

This is the one thing I disagree with. Believe me, I have tried singing for years, and I simply can't. Period. Oh, I can get the "personality and emotion," but I usually can't find the right notes, and hitting the right notes does kinda have some importance when singing.

In that case, it's just a matter of training and practice to harness your voice.

I was thinking about something similar today, actually - anybody can write an awesome song in their head, it's just in how they're able to express it in a tangible form that the "talent" seeps in.

That's not completely true... singing is largely a matter of natural talent, especially when it comes to pitch perfect people and tone deaf people.

Wow.

This is just fucking unbelievable that the man has to defend himself over this. And in his own house, to boot. Incredible.

Mike,  I think it's fine as is so don't feel the need to defend yourself...it's YOUR music, man, and we all dig it!

DTChemist


Mike,  I think it's fine as is so don't feel the need to defend yourself...it's YOUR music, man, and we all dig it!

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 squared

And as a matter of fact, I would love to hear The Best of times with your vocals Mike

Ok, I really didn't like this part of the song, then I heard the cookie monster version.  For my part, I hate growling, so the current version is definately an improvement.

I like Mike's voice, I just don't like this section.  While I love the song (and the entire Album, for that matter), this is a spot where I'm just scatching my head saying 'huh'?  Cookie monster, clean, whatever...I don't think that's the issue for me.  I do think Mike did a good job capturing the emotion and tone of the vocals capturing the tone of the music...definateley better than clean.  The problem is the lyric at this section of the song just does not fit the music, so it's irrelevant how it was sung. 

Honeslty, I agree with Jlb's counterpoint vocals, kinda confuses me. When i first heard this I was surprised to see you growling AND "rapping" like that.  In the end its the perfect balance, just took me a while to get used to.  I used to think it was cheesy, but now, I wait for that part like waiting for Friday Night, I growl right with you hahaha.

and a good idea just for the European Leg with mikael...Have him growl with you specifically on that part...It'll make the crowd go nuts.  If you did that in the US (i know its not gonna happen) that would be sick.  The guys in the pit would make a mosh.

well good luck on the rest of the tour, see at the greek theater in august.

I just think it's awesome, Mike please sing it live!

I don't understand why people mock it, but don't mock the end to the demo of Burning My Soul. I'm sure JLB coughed up a lung on that.

Right.  You're one of the greatest drummers of all time, in one of the greatest bands of all time.  You're in the modern drummer hall of fame.  You're about to do your zillionth world tour, in front of a packed house every night, sitting behind another brand new drum kit and set of cymbals that everybody on this forum would kill for, but you get for free,  with an album in the US top ten. Oh and this album also happens to be the best album you've made in 10 years.   You've just played Donington and you're playing Wembley Arena this year, with Opeth supporting. And you're now friends with Brian May.  I wouldnt worry about "prog types" moaning about a 30 second long segment in one song if i were you (which I happen to LOVE by the way!!!!).

nechtology


Right.  You're one of the greatest drummers of all time, in one of the greatest bands of all time.  You're in the modern drummer hall of fame.  You're about to do your zillionth world tour, in front of a packed house every night, sitting behind another brand new drum kit and set of cymbals that everybody on this forum would kill for, but you get for free,  with an album in the US top ten. Oh and this album also happens to be the best album you've made in 10 years.   You've just played Donington and you're playing Wembley Arena this year, with Opeth supporting. And you're now friends with Brian May.  I wouldnt worry about "prog types" moaning about a 30 second long segment in one song if i were you (which I happen to LOVE by the way!!!!).

Exactly!