thesleeper20

Sorry, but imo TCOT can hardly be described as having lyrics of substance, its simple, straightforward, linear and pretty naive storytelling. Compare it with other lyrics JP has written and you'll see what I mean.

The fact is that John has wrote about his experience and had made it into a very interesting song obviously.  If it had no substance we wouldn't be trying to find the real meaning to this story now would we.  It's certainly most intriguing.

Shiiiiinnneee on you craaaaazzzyyy diiaaammmooonnnddd

thesleeper20

Sorry, but imo TCOT can hardly be described as having lyrics of substance, its simple, straightforward, linear and pretty naive storytelling. Compare it with other lyrics JP has written and you'll see what I mean.

While this is not my exact feelings on the songs lyrics I will agree that JP's lyrics have gone down in quality IMO over the last few albums. All of DT's lyrics are lacking as of late I think. I love TCoT though, even if the lyrics aren't the best. Great song and I really enjoy listening to it. I feel the lyrics from the first half of their career are much better than the second half overall. It's tough to continue coming up with fresh new ideas, and even tougher to maintain a high quality and high level of creativity. Of course the whole issue is subject to opinion. I'm sure some here think that DT lyrics have been great as of late and that is fine.

There are also those who really don't care about lyrics at all, such as yours truly. 

There is definitely a point where lyrics would start affecting my opinions of a song or album, but that's the sort of line Dream Theater obviously isn't going to cross (i.e., bashing religion or something like that, as I am a Christian). 

Muse is my favorite band second only the Dream Theater, and the content of their lyrics is obviously pretty heavy, however for the most part I have no idea what they are about and that does not affect my love for Muse in any way, because the music is phenomenal.

We move in circles...

WAAAAAAAAAHHH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHH!!!

Here's something interesting to think about that I picked out of my Big Brain.

The last couple of sections in the lyrics provoked several thoughts and ideas. I can see several different ways to interpret the lyrics. I'm sure in due time we will all find out the actual story and then the fun will kind of end... moving on...

Lets glean a little bit of information that we can from the lyrics about the Count.

He's from Italy (Tuscany region)
He has a brother who is a historian with a curious background
They both inhabit a large estate
The estate is properly maintained
There is a long history surrounding the family and the estate (how easy would it be to own a large estate if it wasn't passed down thru family? Or does the Count have a large amount of money and if that's the case then more people would probably know about him).
The count has a unique style of worship/religion or whatever you want to call it.

After I took all that into consideration it almost sounds like a huge marketing plan to me.

Let me elaborate.

Mr. Count owns a huge estate in the country and it's basically just he and his brother as far as we know. The estate cost a lot of money to maintain on a regular basis. Mr. Count works hard but has found himself in a bind and needs some extra cash. He speaks with his brother who is a historian. He says to him Bro. we have this huge ass estate, a shit load of wine, and some freaking awesome stories to tell. If we work this properly I can bring some people out here, tell them a little about the history, give them a tour, get there feedback, maybe freak the shit out of them a little, and before you know it people will start showing up and we can charge them to come to our estate. There is always a ton of stupid foreigners and old people that would eat this shit up. 

So Mr. Count goes around looking for people with some influence to take on a tour and plant a seed. He happens to run into a very talented and fortunately famous musician who is there on tour and wants to see some of the countryside. Little did Mr. Count know that his plan would work for now. Several years later after meeting with Mr. Guitar Player (who the Count could not count the number of notes played per second) Mr. Guitar player decides to write a song about his experience. Taking into consideration the last few lines of lyrics...

The Chapel and the Saint
The Soldiers and the Wine
The Fables and the Tales
All Handed down thru Time

Go and tell the world my story
Tell about my Brother
Tell them about me
The Count of Tuscany...


The count has gotten his story out. Yes, there are lack of details for now but, what it all does is make people look up information and start a really cool thread in a forum. How many people when they visit italy are going to try and find the estate. Once people find out more information the legend of the Count and his family could live on forever. There are enough people out there that would go to the estate and listen to the stories and see what all they can find. It's curiosity. People love to have the shit scared out of them. So who's to say that this wasn't all a big master plan for the Count to have people visit his estate for a fee and keep his families heritage alive. 

I know it's very far fetched but, that's the beauty of music and lyrics. For those of you who want to criticize the lyrics etc... Listen to the instrumental track. Whether you like it or not this song will go down as one of Dream Theaters many masterpiece epics. 

p.s. I'm not even going to read back over this and check for mistakes, stupid run-on sentences, or anything else that could be wrong with it. I just hope I got my idea across. <insertsmiley/Thread>

Interesting. 

We move in circles...

WAAAAAAAAAHHH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHH!!!

Eon

thesleeper20

Sorry, but imo TCOT can hardly be described as having lyrics of substance, its simple, straightforward, linear and pretty naive storytelling. Compare it with other lyrics JP has written and you'll see what I mean.

Alright, lets see you do better... no? Didnt think so.

That's the stupidest Goddamn argument ever.  So we should never criticise anything unless we know that we could do better?  I've never seen a film made by Roger Ebert, so I guess he'd better stop being a film critic then.  I don't mind the lyrics of the song, personally, but that "I don't see you doing any better" argument really gets on my tits.

My MySpace Page! < Click on those words for music, fun, joy, other superlatives, etc...

Very interesting, Brad. Very interesting indeed. It would make sense.

"Guys, I think I'm gunna change my look." - John Myung, 2004.
STILL NO CHANGE.

Dude, if he wants publicity it's easier to just put an ad in some of the freely distributed tourism magazines in the whole of tuscany (it is, after all a hugely touristic reason).

Who in their right mind would device such a plan?
I can imagine the count telling to his brutah: " Dude, we want attract tourists right? so I will invite the guitarist of some semi-popular band the hopes that in a couple of years he'll write lyrics about us. You may need to frighten him a bit so it's more dramatic. And please, use a real pipe next time, you knokw people laugh when they see you sucking the bubble pipe "

My Flickr!

LOL ^^^
What if he wasn't even the count and they just broke into the Count's castle while he was out in the town? hahaha
 
 
I wonder if MP will show this thread to JP and looking at all our crazy guesses, he'll laugh his ass off, roll on the floor laughing, pound the floor with his fists, cause an earthquake, and the whole country that he's in right now will feel it...

"Rock Juice, for a rockin' good show!"
-MP

ganpondorodf

Eon

thesleeper20

Sorry, but imo TCOT can hardly be described as having lyrics of substance, its simple, straightforward, linear and pretty naive storytelling. Compare it with other lyrics JP has written and you'll see what I mean.

Alright, lets see you do better... no? Didnt think so.

That's the stupidest Goddamn argument ever.  So we should never criticise anything unless we know that we could do better?  I've never seen a film made by Roger Ebert, so I guess he'd better stop being a film critic then.  I don't mind the lyrics of the song, personally, but that "I don't see you doing any better" argument really gets on my tits.

Yeah, but can you come up with a better argument? Thought so.

Fuck, I just wanna get on your tits. :]

last.fm / facebook / myspace music / myspace / prOgulus / lifer / progrockin'

DefyingMortality

ganpondorodf

Eon

thesleeper20

Sorry, but imo TCOT can hardly be described as having lyrics of substance, its simple, straightforward, linear and pretty naive storytelling. Compare it with other lyrics JP has written and you'll see what I mean.

Alright, lets see you do better... no? Didnt think so.

That's the stupidest Goddamn argument ever.  So we should never criticise anything unless we know that we could do better?  I've never seen a film made by Roger Ebert, so I guess he'd better stop being a film critic then.  I don't mind the lyrics of the song, personally, but that "I don't see you doing any better" argument really gets on my tits.

Yeah, but can you come up with a better argument? Thought so.

Fuck, I just wanna get on your tits. :]

You aren't even the first person to say that to me today, buddy.
 
Think you're so damn clever.
 

My MySpace Page! < Click on those words for music, fun, joy, other superlatives, etc...

ganpondorodf

DefyingMortality

ganpondorodf

Eon

thesleeper20

Sorry, but imo TCOT can hardly be described as having lyrics of substance, its simple, straightforward, linear and pretty naive storytelling. Compare it with other lyrics JP has written and you'll see what I mean.

Alright, lets see you do better... no? Didnt think so.

That's the stupidest Goddamn argument ever.  So we should never criticise anything unless we know that we could do better?  I've never seen a film made by Roger Ebert, so I guess he'd better stop being a film critic then.  I don't mind the lyrics of the song, personally, but that "I don't see you doing any better" argument really gets on my tits.

Yeah, but can you come up with a better argument? Thought so.

Fuck, I just wanna get on your tits. :]

You aren't even the first person to say that to me today, buddy.
 
Think you're so damn clever.
 

I'm sorry baby.

Can I still get on your tits?

last.fm / facebook / myspace music / myspace / prOgulus / lifer / progrockin'

I love how DefyingMortality turns every situation that might be ugly into a funny.

And, since ganpondorodf's avatar is JP.....well.........are you sure, DM?

I love how everyone just breezed over this guy's elaborate hypothesis on the true meaning of the song. I saw ONE PERSON respond to this, and it was just "Awesome!" Seriously guys, read what this man has to say. I'd say it sounds like he's hitting the nail on the head.

Merquise


I've mentioned this in another thread, but this song really strikes me as an Edgar Allan Poe homage, at least in inspiration.

The intro to the song:

Seven years ago
In a foreign town
Far away from home
I met the Count of Tuscany

A young eccentric man
Bred from royal blood
Took me for a ride
Across the open countryside

Reminds me quite a bit of the intro to "The Fall of the House of Usher". A little later the comparison continues but is inverted:

At last we came upon
A picturesque estate
On sprawling emerald fields
An ancient world
Of times gone by

Whereas the Usher estate was dead, with rotted trees and such, the Count's estate is "Picturesque" and specifically "sprawling emerald". This selection is curious, because emphasized at the end of the House of Usher is the description of the land surrounding the house as a "deep and dank tarn" (A tarn being a large, mostly stagnant-water lake), so here we have contrast between an open field and a closed body of water, the former free and alive and the latter restricted and dead. The "I" choruses later on echo the sentiment of the protagonist in Usher, emphasizing a sense of the place just not feeling right and being afraid for his life while his guide (Usher in the Poe story, the Count here) is unmoved.

Then we seem to get a switch to another of Poe's stories, "The Cask of Amontillado". The skeleton of the saint seems to be another inversion of the story -- instead of the Poe story, where we have a drunkard (Fortunato) chained up behind a brick wall at the end as a punishment(The protagonist of this story, Montresor, was also a mason, which might be a cross-reference from here to A Rite of Passage), we have a saint behind a glass wall for the purposes of prayer. The same allusion runs with the wine stanzas below in a little mix with the plot of "The Masque of the Red Death" (Which could explain the booklet artwork, at least in the Special Edition, of the red picture of the man in the hood accompanying the lyrics to this song). These stanzas below:

Could this be the end?
Is this the way I die?
Sitting here alone?
No one by my side

I don't understand
I don't feel that I deserve this
What did I do wrong?
I just don't understand

Give me one more chance
Let me please explain
It's all been circumstance
I'll tell you once again

You took me for a ride
Promising a vast adventure
Next thing that I know
I'm frightened for my life

Mirror Fortunato's situation after being chained up and imprisoned in Montresor's dungeon, but in another inversion, the Count lets him go instead of keeping our protagonist locked up.  Note that the count mentions

The chapel and the saint
The soldiers in the wine
The fable's and the tales
All handed down through time

And from here we get to the ocean sounds at the end of the story. They seem to me to be a reflection of a poem of Poe's called "Annabel Lee", which is set in a seaside location and happened to be the last of Poe's poems before his death, as the sounds are the last on the album.

Thematically, Petrucci could be using the inversions to reject Poe's dark and tragic view of life, illuminating a "people are better than they seem" theme in contrast to Poe's "people are worse than they seem" themes running through his work.

I could be (and I probably am) overreading this, but if I'm right, the raven on the album cover would make a whole bunch more sense, wouldn't it? (And of course I'm not saying that it isn't, as Petrucci said, based on an encounter he personally had, but the details he chooses to write about suggests that he knows his Poe).

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

Well, here it is... JP finally talks about The Count!

http://www.portalgotico.com/2009/06/entrevista-john-petrucci-dos-dream.html

PG - Can you tell us something about the Count of Tuscany?

Petrucci - Yeah, that's another example of a story that I shared, you know, something that happened to me that I would tell my friends and family but I never really wrote about it. Yeah, it's sort of hard to follow the story but it's basically a few years ago when Dream Theater were playing in Florence or something and there was my friend who is my guitar tech, he's also wine importer, so he wanted to visit a winery in Tuscany, so he asked me if I wanted to come along.

So, yeah, the guy who owned the winery is a count, he wasn´t the count of Tuscany, he is a count of something, anyway he brought us to this winery, it was a very old castle in the hills of Italy, it was very bizarre, you know just really weird stories the guy told, you know, like a mummified saint and a chapel, very strange and weird, I thought it would be great to tell that story, probably make a movie of it!

So, there you have it...

THE END

...well that's boring.

"Guys, I think I'm gunna change my look." - John Myung, 2004.
STILL NO CHANGE.

Ink

...well that's boring.

 Yeah I know, I found this link on JP's forum... and I was like

Read it... and then.... oohh, thanks John for explaining this...

... now what do we do now?

ganpondorodf

Eon

thesleeper20

Sorry, but imo TCOT can hardly be described as having lyrics of substance, its simple, straightforward, linear and pretty naive storytelling. Compare it with other lyrics JP has written and you'll see what I mean.

Alright, lets see you do better... no? Didnt think so.

That's the stupidest Goddamn argument ever.  So we should never criticise anything unless we know that we could do better?  I've never seen a film made by Roger Ebert, so I guess he'd better stop being a film critic then.  I don't mind the lyrics of the song, personally, but that "I don't see you doing any better" argument really gets on my tits.

You don't need to be a film director to know that Catwoman was one of the worst movies ever. Case in point, you are right and I too hate that they use that argument as to defend someone.

Here's the word from JP himself:
http://www.portalgotico.com/2009/06/entrevista-john-petrucci-dos-dream.html


PG - Can you tell us something about the Count of Tuscany? 

Petrucci - Yeah, that's another example of a story that I shared, you know, something that happened to me that I would tell my friends and family but I never really wrote about it. Yeah, it's sort of hard to follow the story but it's basically a few years ago when Dream Theater were playing in Florence or something and there was my friend who is my guitar tech, he's also wine importer, so he wanted to visit a winery in Tuscany, so he asked me if I wanted to come along. So, yeah, the guy who owned the winery is a count, he wasn´t the count of Tuscany, he is a count of something, anyway he brought us to this winery, it was a very old castle in the hills of Italy, it was very bizarre, you know just really weird stories the guy told, you know, like a mummified saint and a chapel, very strange and weird, I thought it would be great to tell that story, probably make a movie of it!

My major gripe about the lyrics is that he just didn't really give me a convincing reason for his fearing for his life.  As a listener, it just didn't seem particularly scary--the way he told the story anyway.

Damn, STEVETHEATER beat me to it :-)

ViolinTheater


I love how DefyingMortality turns every situation that might be ugly into a funny.

And, since ganpondorodf's avatar is JP.....well.........are you sure, DM?

BEAR TITS!!!

It's a double meaning.

http://www.last.fm/user/Simo46

Carp Diem - Seize the Fish

Simo46

ViolinTheater


I love how DefyingMortality turns every situation that might be ugly into a funny.

And, since ganpondorodf's avatar is JP.....well.........are you sure, DM?

BEAR TITS!!!

It's a double meaning.

Add Weymo and some lube and you've got my dream night.

last.fm / facebook / myspace music / myspace / prOgulus / lifer / progrockin'

dci1812


There has been a lot of speculation here regarding who the Count could be based on.  Much of the speculation has centered on Pietro Pacciani.  If you do a little research, you will find that Pacciani was NOTHING like the person described in TCOT.  He was a drunken, oafish, uneducated bully.  Thomas Harris was following the case of the Monster of Florence and based parts of Hannibal Lecter's character from that case.  He did NOT base Hannibal Lecter on Pertro Pacciani.  There has also been a fair amount of (unfair, I think) critisism of JP's reaction to what he experienced in Tuscany.  Listed below is a link to what is BY FAR the most exhaustive (English) account of the ongoing mystery behind the Monster of Florence.  It addresses both matters here.  If you acquaint yourself with the contents of this article, it is easy to see: 1) Pacciani was - very likely - falsely accused, and 2) how easily it would have been for JP to have been scared by considering the true facts of the case.  Take close note of the man described only as "The Sardonian", and also of a very suspicious "Grande Ville" he and other suspicious persons of interest frequented (wine cellars and all).  Enjoy!!  http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200607/florence-murder

Wow, thanks for the link.  I just read the entire thing and found it to be incredibly fascinating and very well written.  And it looks like it isn't the most exhaustive account in English since the author ended up publishing the book in English (referenced in the article as originally published in Italian).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446581275/ref=s9_simz_gw_s0_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0HY4XMTTQPBJN3TCKGKH&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

STEVETHEATER

Ink

...well that's boring.

 Yeah I know, I found this link on JP's forum... and I was like

Read it... and then.... oohh, thanks John for explaining this...

... now what do we do now?

SEQUEL!

djmetalhead

STEVETHEATER

Ink

...well that's boring.

 Yeah I know, I found this link on JP's forum... and I was like

Read it... and then.... oohh, thanks John for explaining this...

... now what do we do now?

SEQUEL!

The Count of Tuscany II: Petrucci VS Count

A concept album detailing the battles between The Bear and The Count of Tuscany.

Track Listing:

1. Don't Tell Me to Wait; That IS How It Is!
2. The Bear Roar
3. The Bear Guitar Solo
4. The Bear Guitar Solo II.
5. The Bear Guitar Solo III.
6. The Death of the Count

Well, the full story behind those lyrics will be in the second edition of Lifting Shadows . . .

 
www.dreamtheaterbook.com

Ahh Rich, once again you come through with the goods!

Hopefully he goes a fair bit more indepth than that short answer above...

"Guys, I think I'm gunna change my look." - John Myung, 2004.
STILL NO CHANGE.

Just read the whole interview and I came to the question about Wither. I thought this was the best lyrics from the album and kinda hoped that it would be a very deep meaning behind it and so.

To qoute a bit of John´s answer:

So we were laughing and wrote a song about nothing.
So, in a way, Wither isn't really about anything, it's kind like when you try to write lyrics and you're staring at a blank piece of paper and you're like: oh, what should I write about? You know, if you look deeper into it, then you can say it's about trying to let the creative process happen, but in some ways it's kind of not deep at all, it's just about writing.

Keys In Motion


Just read the whole interview and I came to the question about Wither. I thought this was the best lyrics from the album and kinda hoped that it would be a very deep meaning behind it and so.

To qoute a bit of John´s answer:

So we were laughing and wrote a song about nothing.
So, in a way, Wither isn't really about anything, it's kind like when you try to write lyrics and you're staring at a blank piece of paper and you're like: oh, what should I write about? You know, if you look deeper into it, then you can say it's about trying to let the creative process happen, but in some ways it's kind of not deep at all, it's just about writing.

I agree.  Kinda a bummer.  I know it shouldn't matter, but it totally affects the way I think of lyrics when I know the writer's intentions or inspiration behind them. 

Anybody know The Cootees' song called "[Blank]"? 

It's about how they didn't know what to write about, so they wrote about the song itself.

We move in circles...

WAAAAAAAAAHHH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHH!!!

WilliamMunny

Keys In Motion


Just read the whole interview and I came to the question about Wither. I thought this was the best lyrics from the album and kinda hoped that it would be a very deep meaning behind it and so.

To qoute a bit of John´s answer:

So we were laughing and wrote a song about nothing.
So, in a way, Wither isn't really about anything, it's kind like when you try to write lyrics and you're staring at a blank piece of paper and you're like: oh, what should I write about? You know, if you look deeper into it, then you can say it's about trying to let the creative process happen, but in some ways it's kind of not deep at all, it's just about writing.

I agree.  Kinda a bummer.  I know it shouldn't matter, but it totally affects the way I think of lyrics when I know the writer's intentions or inspiration behind them.

Well if the inspiration gives you more from the song think about this way, they were inspired by their currant lack of inspiration. Marveled at their ability not to see beauty in the things around them the way the once had.

As for TCOT, yeah, maybe its a straight forward song. maybe it doesnt make to much sense. but simply the fact that John felt the need to write it should lend some measure of importance to the song. I would think think that the song itself, regardless of what the lyrics are and why they mean, would give inspiration. even if you ignore the lyrics themselves, just James' voice, is like any other instrument. you dont have to listen and hear words, just like most people cant listen and hear the chords of guitar playing.

personally, this song specifically, and the whole album in general, managed to inspire me enough that i wrote the first song (lyricaly) that ive ever written, and i was told it was good by people who give honest opinions. and as to what the song means, have none of you ever had someone so openly and obviously friendly that its disconcerting?? have you never felt that some one was acting in a way that was just to kindly for their apperent demeaonor?? Europeans may have a bit of trouble understanding that, they have such an openly affectionate society, but even they have bubbles.

metropolis pt 13


Anybody know The Cootees' song called "[Blank]"? 

It's about how they didn't know what to write about, so they wrote about the song itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_of_show

Sometimes I think JP intentionally gives those answers to lyrical questions just to throw us off his trail.  I've began thinking that when he claimed that he forgot what the subject matter behind "Octavarium" was.  Lies!

"I do not fight for you...ya fuckin' dick."-John Petrucci

Maybe JP doesn't do a brilliant job of getting the sense of fear across, but to anyone playing it down, I recommend going back and listening to Panic Attack from Octavarium.

I'm assuming JP has experience with clinical anxiety, but even if he doesn't, the character does. You could probably insert the whole Panic Attack song in between the last chorus and the quiet bit and it'd work. Sure, the situation seems silly when you describe it to someone, but there's nothing rational about the type of fear you get when you go into that feedback loop of paranoia, and I don't think anyone currently in a calm and logical state can truly understand that.

If you don't like the lyrics, listen to the instrumental version and keep the story in mind - the music probably tells the story better than the words once you know what it's about

...did I post that or just think it?

roburado


My major gripe about the lyrics is that he just didn't really give me a convincing reason for his fearing for his life.  As a listener, it just didn't seem particularly scary--the way he told the story anyway.

"Hey guy I've just met, I'm gonna abduct you all the way to my estate so you can meet my brother. He's great, he's like a real life Hannibal Lecter, you'll love him. 

"Right that's the "we're gonna eat you" section of the tour over, onto my collection of corpses!"

JP is still not mentioning some details, like who the cannibal currator is... :P

This thread is awesome!  

btw...I was listening to Lines In The Sand this morning....damn!  Those are some good lyrics!

Sabredog

"Hey guy I've just met, I'm gonna abduct you all the way to my estate so you can meet my brother. He's great, he's like a real life Hannibal Lecter, you'll love him. 

"Right that's the "we're gonna eat you" section of the tour over, onto my collection of corpses!"

 
This made me laugh quite a bit.  Just picture JP being scared stiff throughout. 
 
Anyway, the lyrics of Wither remind me of a piece of creative writing we had to do at school when I was about 13 or so.  The title we were given was "I couldn't think of what to do next", so I ended up doing a completely stupid self-referential thing about trying to write a piece of creative writing, then getting a mental block and being unable to finish said piece of creative writing.  Pretty post-modern for such a young lad, I reckoned!

My MySpace Page! < Click on those words for music, fun, joy, other superlatives, etc...