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     Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops.

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    OceanMachine

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    RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:42 AM (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Mike Bahr

    As for that posted quote from Perot, the moment it had the phrase " American plan for Global Domination" , it lost all credibility.


    Suggest you read the Bush administration' s own National Security Strategy and Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld' s Rebuilding America' s Defenses before making a statement like that. These guys are all about establishing an American global hegemony and ensuring that nothing and nobody can threaten it. And they really make no effort to hide that. It' s not like Perot is spouting some sinister conspiracy theory, this is what the administration says itself.

     
      DawnOfNone

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      RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:06 AM (permalink)


      ORIGINAL: Landon
      From nations including, Britain, Hungary, <b>Belgium</b>, Spain... and obviously close to 45 more.... even many in the arab community as of this morning after the " Powellful" speech. hehehe... sorry, had to do that one.

      Hey Perot.... Daz nice... Comparing me to Bar69... Yeah, I' ll go get my daughter to write a letter to Saddam to tell him to stop killing his own people by the thousands...


      Get your facts straight! Belgium is on the French side on this one.
       
        Perot

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        RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:10 AM (permalink)

        ORIGINAL: Mike Bahr
        As for that posted quote from Perot, the moment it had the phrase " American plan for Global Domination" , it lost all credibility.


        Why? Because you can' t accept that those running your country could be so vile in their intentions? Why don' t you try throwing all pretenses aside and giving an objective look at the data? Feel free to call this plan by your own prefered choice of words, but don' t pass judgement until you' ve read through the 23 page document. I' ve linked a PDF version of it. Personally, it damn well looks like a plan for domination. WHat else would you call making sure no industrialised nation can rival the US in terms of force? What else do you call multiple regime changes to fit the US' s agenda? What else to you call the establishement of a global US " command & Control" ? Anyway, before you read the document, and accept that Rumsfeld, Cheney and Jeb Bush were part of the drafting team, YOU have no credibility in any assessements you make of it.
         
          acos2

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          RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:03 AM (permalink)
          We have all missed the point that Perot is in fact, never wrong. If anyone here does not agree with him, you are simply wrong yourself. I hereby give up on this topic.
          Thank you, have a nice day
          5/4/07
           
            Perot

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            RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:09 AM (permalink)

            ORIGINAL: acos2

            We have all missed the point that Perot is in fact, never wrong. If anyone here does not agree with him, you are simply wrong yourself. I hereby give up on this topic.
            Thank you, have a nice day


            Of course not! But simply saying I' m full of it without checking the sources I provided ain' t exactly fair now ain' t it?
             
              Phylum Tardigrada

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              RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:16 AM (permalink)

              Get your facts straight! Belgium is on the French side on this one.


              Yes well we already determined that you are french, so that is good reason for it, not to mention the two from Quebec who most likely are French Canadian as well.
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                Perot

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                RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:31 AM (permalink)

                ORIGINAL: Phylum Tardigrada
                not to mention the two from Quebec who most likely are French Canadian as well.


                What of it? What in the blue hell are you trying to say? Getting xenophobic are we? Well hang on to your hat buddy because as the world opinon is showing, you' ll have a hell of a lot more nationalities that don' t share a point of view. Be careful not to turn downright racist. I' m watching you.
                 
                  DawnOfNone

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                  RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:33 AM (permalink)
                  You just demonstrated your mentality again. You didn' t bother to get independent information when you asked where I lived. The place is called Flanders, but you just assumed otherwise, not even bothering to look up useful information.
                  You base your opininions only on that what you' re being fed and articles stating otherwise, you refute as un-american, as if they would lose credibility based on the opinion they suggest.
                  My first language is Dutch. I speak french to a single person, whom I see about once every two weeks. Don' t call me French. I' m not disregarding the french speaking community, but I am proud of what I am, and want to be seen as such.
                  And since you are getting personal: what does it matter what language a person speaks? Most of what we know in terms of science is based on papers written in Greek and Latin. As a matter of fact: I can understand Dutch, English, French, German, Italian and Latin, which enables me to get information from several countries, and therefor from a multitude of sources. The same goes for most Europeans, South Americans and Canadians. We can base our opinions on several sides of the story.
                  You on the other hand seem quite content settling with right-wing propaganda and presenting it as undisputable, in a troll-like fashion.
                  That last remark is addressed to PT only, as most forumers seem to be thinking for theirselves.

                  To make things short: multi-linguicity is an advantage, not something to disrespect.
                   
                    DawnOfNone

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                    RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:34 AM (permalink)


                    ORIGINAL: Perot


                    ORIGINAL: Phylum Tardigrada
                    not to mention the two from Quebec who most likely are French Canadian as well.


                    What of it? What in the blue hell are you trying to say? Getting xenophobic are we? Well hang on to your hat buddy because as the world opinon is showing, you' ll have a hell of a lot more nationalities that don' t share a point of view. Be careful not to turn downright racist. I' m watching you.



                    What do you mean turning to?
                     
                      Phylum Tardigrada

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                      RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:36 AM (permalink)

                      What of it? What in the blue hell are you trying to say? Getting xenophobic are we? Well hang on to your hat buddy because as the world opinon is showing, you' ll have a hell of a lot more nationalities that don' t share a point of view. Be careful not to turn downright racist. I' m watching you.


                      Racist about what? About the fact I said you were French and France happens to take a position against what is happening in Iraq because they' ll lose their oil agreements with Saddam Hussein and all these wonderful weapons sales? Yeah ok.

                      I am going to laugh if France has its hand caught in the cookie jar, the Iraqi' s know ahead of time what and where the UN Weapons inspectors are going to inspect, and France may have something to do with that, I guess we' ll know that for sure probably after the fall of the Iraqi Regime.

                      And no, a few people on the message board don' t represent the world sorry.
                      < Message edited by Phylum Tardigrada -- 2/6/2003 11:37:08 AM >
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                        Phylum Tardigrada

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                        RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:41 AM (permalink)

                        As a matter of fact: I can understand Dutch, English, French, German, Italian and Latin, which enables me to get information from several countries, and therefor from a multitude of sources.



                        To make things short: multi-linguicity is an advantage, not something to disrespect.


                        A very good friend of mine dated for many years someone who was born and lived in the north end of Belgium, she could speak something like 8 languages.

                        I have no issue with how many languages you or others speak, I think thats great and isn' t the point. The point being is noting the French ties to the opinion of the position of France and the strong negativity to US positioning, thats it.
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                          DawnOfNone

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                          RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:45 AM (permalink)
                          I AM NOT FRENCH!!!!!

                          Whith the immortal words of Alladin Sarsipius Sulemanagic: Ignoramus.
                           
                            Perot

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                            RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:46 AM (permalink)

                            ORIGINAL: Phylum Tardigrada
                            Racist about what? About the fact I said you were French and France happens to take a position against what is happening in Iraq


                            The only thing REMOTELY similar between a Quebecer and a french from France is the language. Of course, being all bottled up in your little bubble, you wouldn' t know that. Your little uninformed opinion on the rest of the world means very little as you have demonstrated a perfect lack of knowledge about anything outside of your border, and you did so on NUMEROUS occasions. I' d tell you to stop while you' re ahead, but you' ve never been. Care to continue making a fool out of yourself?
                            < Message edited by Perot -- 2/6/2003 11:47:57 AM >
                             
                              DawnOfNone

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                              RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:50 AM (permalink)
                              Tell me please what importance a language has in politics, because I am completely missing the point. I live in a country that has about the same amount of french speaking as dutch speaking inhabitants. On every issue there are both supporters and opposing people from both communities. Thought is not bound by language. Yours is bound by a million things, but not by language.
                               
                                Phylum Tardigrada

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                                RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:51 AM (permalink)

                                The only thing REMOTELY similar between a Quebecer and a french from France is the language. Of course, being all bottled up in your little bubble, you wouldn' t know that. Your little uninformed opinion on the rest of the world means very little as you have demonstrated a perfect lack of knowledge about anything outside of your border, and you did so on NUMEROUS occasions. I' d tell you to stop while you' re ahead, but you' ve never been. Care to continue making a fool out of yourself?


                                Lets see... France dictates all documentation must be written in French, Quebec also follows suit. Quebec has a movement to separate from the rest of Canada because they aren' t french speaking... hrmm seems to me my thoughts in regards to the association are pretty close to the truth.
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                                  DawnOfNone

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                                  RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:00 PM (permalink)
                                  I region wanting to get more sovereignity is not unusual. Quebec blindly following a country that is 5,000 miles (most likely more, but this is not relevant) away is stupid.
                                   
                                    Phylum Tardigrada

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                                    RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:00 PM (permalink)
                                    DawnOfNone -


                                    Tell me please what importance a language has in politics, because I am completely missing the point. I live in a country that has about the same amount of french speaking as dutch speaking inhabitants. On every issue there are both supporters and opposing people from both communities. Thought is not bound by language. Yours is bound by a million things, but not by language.


                                    In one case you seem to post fairly and politely, I like that better since it makes it easier to have a discussion about it.

                                    Language is very important in politics. First language is the form of communication we all use, whether its thoughts, ideas, emotions, views, opinions, love, hate, anything that we know or wish to communicate is done with language. We all identify with language, and we idendify best with the language that each of us associate with best. I could jump on a plane and fly to Iraq, speak to as many people as I possibly could, if they don' t speak English they' d not understand what I was speaking about, or perhaps assume I was speaking about something I am not. For instance, I know some Italian (forgot more then I know) and spent several weeks with a couple from Italy, I could understand some of what they were saying but half the time it seemed like they were arguing, ok so they weren' t really fighting it is just the way Italians are in the perception of an American or others who might watch them. This is based on communication. Language also can determine the clarity in which we all comphrend something, someone who doesn' t utilize english as their main language might not comphrehend something in the same way an English speaker might.



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                                      Perot

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                                      RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:01 PM (permalink)

                                      ORIGINAL: Phylum Tardigrada
                                      Lets see... France dictates all documentation must be written in French, Quebec also follows suit.


                                      Does the US require that all governemental publications be in English? Gee, you must be more british than I thought? Why did you bother gaining your independence from them through war then?

                                      Having 95% of the population being french speaking is it it NORMAL that governmental publications be in french???



                                      Quebec has a movement to separate from the rest of Canada because they aren' t french speaking...


                                      TABARNAK! How fuckin uninformed can you get???!! Language is just part of a VERY complicated issue. Separation is not just about the distinctiveness in culture, it' s about the federal governement being too centralized and seeping it' s paws into areas that are not of his jurisdiction. But then again, why do I bother. I was not put on this world to educate uninformed little twerps that make it a goal of theirs to slander whole societies based on their demented misconceptions.


                                       
                                        British

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                                        SLATE even says Powell delivered a ' smoking gun' Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:02 PM (permalink)
                                        SLATE, one of the biggest bleeding-heart liberal, anti-war, anti-Bush, online editorial sites that I know of, even agrees (for the most part) with Powell.

                                        Colin Powell makes his case

                                        I' ve been reading Slate almost daily for a couple of years now whenever I needed a good laugh. In all that time, this is the first thing I' ve ever seen them write that actually makes sense. [:' (]

                                         
                                          DawnOfNone

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                                          RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:02 PM (permalink)
                                          OK, language is useful in communication. NOW SHOW MY HOW IT INFLUENCES OPINIONS, which is what I' m really asking.
                                           
                                            Phylum Tardigrada

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                                            RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:04 PM (permalink)

                                            I region wanting to get more sovereignity is not unusual. Quebec blindly following a country that is 5,000 miles (most likely more, but this is not relevant) away is stupid.


                                            So then you think its stupid that Canada followed as the Queens army?

                                            You think its silly that Quebec and the rest of Canada don' t have the best relations even though they are the same country, one is English Based, the other is French Based, and well, we all know the history between the English and the French, they weren' t exactly allies through history. I think it holds some reality to it, especially considering that as far as Quebec is concerned, French is the language not English.
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                                              DawnOfNone

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                                              RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:05 PM (permalink)


                                              ORIGINAL: Phylum Tardigrada

                                              DawnOfNone -


                                              Thought is not bound by language. Yours is bound by a million things, but not by language.


                                              In one case you seem to post fairly and politely, I like that better since it makes it easier to have a discussion about it.



                                              I can' t believe this. Do I explicitly have to call you stupid before you get it?
                                               
                                                Phylum Tardigrada

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                                                RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:07 PM (permalink)

                                                OK, language is useful in communication. NOW SHOW MY HOW IT INFLUENCES OPINIONS, which is what I' m really asking.


                                                Let me return a question... How can you influence with out being able to communicate?

                                                - Black Coffee Solutions for a world of Complex and Integrated Flavors.

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                                                  Phylum Tardigrada

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                                                  RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:08 PM (permalink)

                                                  I can' t believe this. Do I explicitly have to call you stupid before you get it?


                                                  End of conversation.
                                                  - Black Coffee Solutions for a world of Complex and Integrated Flavors.

                                                  - Diverse Donut with a hole in the middle or genetically corrupt pastry... you decide!
                                                  - Things aren' t always what they' re not.
                                                   
                                                    DawnOfNone

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                                                    RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:09 PM (permalink)
                                                    My point is that the opinions in Quebec are completely independed from France. I can understand them for opposing a situation where almost everybody speaks french in the region, where all paperwork must be in english.
                                                    Just imagin Danish to be the national language in the US when you wake up tomorrow. Tell me how much you will like it having to go to city hall filling out papers you don' t (or hardly) understand.
                                                     
                                                      DawnOfNone

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                                                      RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:13 PM (permalink)
                                                      But does the ability to communicate automatically persuade somebody?
                                                      Do all English speaking people have the same opinion? NO. So why would somebody base their opinions on the language they speak? This is the real question. If you can' t grasp it, don' t make such remarks or preferably stay out of political threads.
                                                       
                                                        DawnOfNone

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                                                        RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:14 PM (permalink)


                                                        ORIGINAL: Phylum Tardigrada


                                                        I can' t believe this. Do I explicitly have to call you stupid before you get it?


                                                        End of conversation.


                                                        Seems like I do.
                                                         
                                                          British

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                                                          RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:04 PM (permalink)


                                                          ORIGINAL: DawnOfNone



                                                          ORIGINAL: Phylum Tardigrada


                                                          I can' t believe this. Do I explicitly have to call you stupid before you get it?


                                                          End of conversation.


                                                          Seems like I do.


                                                          I know when someone calls ME stupid, that automatically makes me MUCH more willing to listen to their point of view. " Oh, thank you, thank you kind sir, I was unaware that I was stupid. Thank you for pointing this out to me, it has truly changed my life forever!" I often say. I would then go on to explain how I would try to not be stupid in the future, and then I would invite them over for tea and crumpets. I' m not even sure what a crumpet is but that' s probably just because I' m stupid. I' m sure they sell them at the local delicatessen or something.
                                                           
                                                            DawnOfNone

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                                                            RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:10 PM (permalink)
                                                            I' m making a list of insults PT has made in his last 100 posts as we speak. In the case of PT, there' s really not much else to do. He' ll insult everybody disagreeing with him, and not reacting to counter arguments, or at least not to the essence of it. I' ve had it with him, and decided to use his own technique against him, to no avail.
                                                             
                                                              Mike Bahr

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                                                              RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:28 PM (permalink)

                                                              ORIGINAL: Perot


                                                              ORIGINAL: Mike Bahr
                                                              As for that posted quote from Perot, the moment it had the phrase " American plan for Global Domination" , it lost all credibility.


                                                              Why? Because you can' t accept that those running your country could be so vile in their intentions? Why don' t you try throwing all pretenses aside and giving an objective look at the data?


                                                              No. HERE is why I say it has lost all credibility:

                                                              The presentation of facts or statistics, however " hard" the data may be made to appear, is nonetheless subject to the editorial razor of the person doing the compiling. In this way, statistics can be made to " lie" , and facts can be warped by presenting bits of corroborating information and selectively omitting contrary information. In statistics especially, and stats are used often to make argumentative points and to back up assertions... researchers can jump between mean and median results depending whether the data skew supports or refutes their hypothesis, or they can use careful assembly of the sample sets and dependent variables in order to yield statistical outcomes that tell a very different story than the real-world reality on a given issue.

                                                              In order to gauge the veracity of something presented as " fact" , then, one must take a serious look at the integrity of its provenance. By using the phrase " American plan for Global Domination" , the authors of your linked article made their bias on the issue very clear. A logical person would then conclude that their " facts" and " statistics" , as explained above, will be carefully pruned and sculpted to tell their side of the story while omitting or minimizing or straw-manning any other possible intepretation. Your authors destroyed their own credibility as an authoritiative source on the information they presented. This makes the entire article' s value as a useful document negligible.

                                                              If the premises of the article you linked were put forth and asserted in a research document by an institution with real credibility - say, by a doctoral dissertation from a Cambridge or Notre Dame scholar - then they would deserve genuine attention and scrutiny. However, it is unlikely that those same conclusions would be reached by a credible author, because their carving up of the data would be different in approach and result.

                                                              By posting that link, you fall victim to the same intellectual suicide as yellowtimes.org, which was caught using a fictitious " political think-tank" to generate references, when that thinktank was found to be actually a fabrication by the YT web staff. It does no good to qualify a liberal proposal with references deriving from the liberal gestalt. The best thing a writer can do in order to give the weight of impartiality to their document is to use as many unbiased sources as they can in the assembly of such a document.
                                                              -MPB/AZ- -Fidelitas Veritas Vindico-
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                                                                Perot

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                                                                RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:42 PM (permalink)

                                                                ORIGINAL: Mike Bahr
                                                                By posting that link, you fall victim to the same intellectual suicide


                                                                Ah, but you fail to take into account that I ALSO gave a link to the raw data. Everybody' s free to consult it and draw up their own conclusion. Again, I invite you to do so and prove me wrong. The document PDF I linked to is what is the subject of critique from the Sunday Herald. Look at it, remember that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Jeb Bush were part of PNAC in 1997 and report back.



                                                                The best thing a writer can do in order to give the weight of impartiality to their document is to use as many unbiased sources as they can in the assembly of such a document.


                                                                Better yet. Take the raw data and come to his own conclusions. WHich I did. So before labeling me and my stance as non-credible, go read the 23 page document.
                                                                 
                                                                  ByTorOfLamneth

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                                                                  RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:59 PM (permalink)
                                                                  If there' s one thing the world politics discussions on this Forum have taught me, it is this:

                                                                  I now understand why more and more people begin to get on the United States' ass about everything because we have the gung-ho, guns-a-blazin' , looking-down-the-nose-at-anyone-who-might-have-a-different-opinion-of-American-foreign-policy nutbags who piss on all comers who dare question anything.

                                                                  Phylum, while I' ve never really had an issue with anything you' ve said although I might disagree with a lot of it, I' ve always respected your opinion because you do so in an educated fashion irregardless of how slanted it may seem.

                                                                  With that said, it' s way off base to start dumping on Perot and others because they' re not Americans and MIGHT just happen to present some good arguments for not having any action against Iraq and to write them off because they' re either French (which Dawn Of None made clear he wasn' t) or French-Canadian (which Perot is but has nothing in any way to do with the country of France) is completely foolish.

                                                                  Now please take off the cowboy hat and listen to some other opinions without shitting on other people.
                                                                  Joe
                                                                  In Canada, they have three gods. Number one is beer. Number two is Rush and number three is Wayne Gretzky. - Sebastian Bach
                                                                   
                                                                    acos2

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                                                                    RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 3:23 PM (permalink)
                                                                    Thats a good point also. If I don' t agree with someone or don' t like them for some reason, it has nothing to do with where they are from or what language they speak. Thats utterly ridiculous. Unless they are Irish!! Damn Irish, can' t trust em. ....Yes, I am Irish. And yes, I am kidding.
                                                                    5/4/07
                                                                     
                                                                      guitargeek

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                                                                      RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 3:34 PM (permalink)

                                                                      Thats utterly ridiculous. Unless they are Irish!! Damn Irish, can' t trust em. ....Yes, I am Irish. And yes, I am kidding.


                                                                      I' m reminded of a line from Blazing Saddles, which I won' t post here... but it' s funny.
                                                                       $> man woman
                                                                       $> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                        acos2

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                                                                        RE: Colin Powell has provided to us clear as day. Let' s now support our troops. Thursday, February 06, 2003 3:46 PM (permalink)
                                                                        I was laughing thinking about the Irishman from Braveheart. " In order to speak to his equal, an Irishman is forced to speak to the lord himself" or something like that.
                                                                        5/4/07
                                                                         
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